Question on BSA and religion.

[OldGreyEagle]

Not sure how B-P's sexuality comes to light on a thread concerned with BSA and religion, but these threads are much like Forest Gump's feather, they float as they will.

 

I was always impresed that B-P married a girl 32 years his junior and then had 3 children.

 

I understand the confusion brought about by Kudu's posts, one reading them would have to assume that he would have no part of the BSA, but indeed he says he is a registered leader in the BSA. He is also exercising his right to freedom of expression and we are free to think what we want about his posts. I can't say I always enjoy his posts, but they are almost always intriging

[SSScout]

Six looooong pages and how much is actually about "BSA and Religion? And the 'other' topic? Who (or what) are you fellows worshiping? Yes, I think the 'other ' topic should have spun off loooong ago.

[Trevorum]

Oh, I don't know, I rather enjoy the meandering of these threads. From the title alone, one never knows what uncharted waters (or dead horses) are in store. At any moment, Semper may start us all punning, or Kudu is apt to go off on long, meticulously documented tirades, or Rooster will wade in with his predictable lightening rods. Some threads are short and sweet but others weave several conversations simultaneously (just like the dinner table!)

[GernBlansten]

My momma always said, "Issues and Politics is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get."

[Rooster7]

Rooster will weigh in with his predictable lightening rods.

 

Guilty as charged, Im sure. I like to cut to the chase. If you breakdown most of these issues - it comes down to a few core beliefs (i.e. Does God exist? Who is God? Is human nature good or bad? What is our purpose in life?). In you have a good idea as to what you believe (in regard to the aforementioned questions) and especially if you are confident in the answers, then you too will be fairly blunt in your reaction to most other questions and just as passionate as I (and many others).

 

So if I offend, I apologize to this extent its not my goal to offend. I just want to wade through the non-sense, and weigh in on something thats more substantial. Heres an analogy. It seems to me, we are like a bunch of contractors arguing over what color to paint the rooms of a house. When in fact, we havent even agreed as to what kind of house we are building.

 

Still as Trevorum pointed out, the conversations have been interesting - if not always polite.

 

[Trevorum]

I like the caramels best. Hate the gooey cherrie centers. Ooops, new topic!

 

(Spun thread: Life is like a box of chocolates)

 

[Kudu]

Can a person be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter?

 

To get back to Bobanon's original question, I found another BSA URL that specifically states that "Scouting" does not accept atheists and agnostics as adult volunteer leaders:

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/dutytogo-155.htm

 

"Policies

 

"Youth and Adult Volunteers

 

"Boy Scouts of America believes that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. Accordingly, adult volunteer leaders of Boy Scouts of America obligate themselves to do their duty to God and be reverent as embodied in the Scout Oath, the Scout Law, and the Declaration of Religious Principle. Because of its views concerning the duty to God, Boy Scouts of America believes that an atheist or agnostic is not an appropriate role model of the Scout Oath and Law for adolescent boys. Because of Scoutings methods and beliefs, Scouting does not accept atheists and agnostics as adult volunteer leaders."

 

Bobanon also wrote:

 

I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god.

 

As far as a personal god goes, this same URL also includes the full DRP, rather than the "excerpt" found on all volunteer applications. My reading of the plain meaning is that you are required acknowledge that belief in a personal god who runs the universe is necessary to being the "best kind of citizen." This does not specifically bar membership to those who do not believe in a personal god, it just requires that they acknowledge that they (and everybody else who does not worship a personal god) are not the "best kind of citizens."

 

The next sentence reads "No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them." The plain meaning of that sentence is that children are to be told that people who do not worship a personal god are not the "best kind of citizens."

 

The sentence following that is the one most often quoted by moderates to prove that the BSA is not so bad really: "The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training." My reading of that sentence is that the "absolutely nonsectarian attitude" of the BSA is conditional on agreement with the previous sentences.

 

That being said, I have never heard of an adult willing to sign this "Declaration of Religious Principle" being challenged unless they say something that reveals that they don't believe in God, or believe that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable. Scouts, of course, may or may not be routinely challenged on a regular basis in Scoutmaster Conferences and Boards of Review.

 

"Declaration of Religious Principle, Bylaws of Boy Scouts of America, art. IX, 1, cl. 1

 

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law. The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life.

 

For those who have not read it, here is a URL for the recent "Save Our Scouts Act" which gives the BSA some relief from recent efforts to enact local legislation to deny use of public facilities to organizations that practice discrimination.

 

http://www.bsalegal.org/downloads/SOSA.pdf

 

Finally, Fishsqueezer wrote:

 

As indicated earlier, I emailed the council office to request a copy. Within a few hours they offered to copy and mail me all 3 books of bylaws. If it is that easy to get a copy then they hardly count as secret.

 

As soon as I read that, I also E-mailed my council and requested a copy. I was told that my request had been forwarded to the Scout Executive for his consideration. So this does signal either a change in policy, or a change in how the discretion of the Scout Executive is interpreted. At one time you could simply order copies from the catalog, but when distribution was limited to Scout Executives it was customary to make an appointment to read them.

 

In my case, the SE has not gotten back to me, but that may be because of an incident a couple of weeks ago. The parents of my Scouts complained that their sons came back from the last campout upset that "They are going to shoot 'Air Bud!!!" I called the Council Office to object to the camp ranger's announcement that he was going to shoot as a nuisance the neighbor's golden retriever who goes from campsite to campsite visiting the Scouts on weekends. So, the SE might have decided that it is not a good idea to provide a potential "trouble-maker" with the rules and regulations of the BSA :-/

 

At any rate, if you are a proven loyal and obedient "team player," you might consider ordering copies of the BSA bylaws, as well as the rules & regulations now while they are available.

 

Kudu

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Sounds like someone is not too happy about being forced to sleep in the bed they made.

[Kudu]

?

[Kudu]

Do you mean if I had it to do over again, would I remain silent about the ranger's decision to shoot Air Bud so that I would be perceived as a team player? :-/

 

Kudu

[BrentAllen]

You labeled yourself a "troublemaker". Is this the first time this has happened? Would the SE or the Council leadership consider you a "troublemaker" for any other incidents?

 

Once you "make your bed" as a "troublemaker" you have to deal with the results of that - "sleep in that bed."

It is the opposite of being "a proven loyal and obedient 'team player,'."

[Kahuna]

The BSA position as stated sounds like sophistry to me. In any case, they obviously have no way of determining who is agnostic if the person doesn't tell them. I find that whole statement on the website to be inconsistent with itself.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Absolutely! No one like a trouble maker. And I am so glad that our nation's proud history has been free of these troublesome troublemakers. People like Rosa Parks - now there was a true team player. No waves. And Jackie Robinson! No trouble there. Not to mention all those folks like John Adams and Ben Franklin who violently rebelled against the legal authority of old King George - not a troublemaker among 'em!

 

Yep, troublemakers never do anything but cause grief to us law-abiding citizens.

[BrentAllen]

Trev,

Here's an equally pertinent list of troublemakers:

 

Charles Manson

 

The Columbine duo

 

Jeffrey Dahmer

 

Now, which of the two groups would mind, or would enjoy, being compared to a Scouter being a troublemaker because he doesn't like the way the BSA runs Scouting?

[Kudu]

Charles Manson, The Columbine duo, Jeffrey Dahmer

 

Gee, what does it take to get a bar fight started here in the land of Friendly, Courteous & Kind?