Question on BSA and religion.

[Bobanon]

Yes, quite the nut to crack eh? And yes there is as much difference between an agnosticism and atheism as there is between Christianity and atheism.

 

 

Fishsqueezer I didn't mean to paint with such a broad brush. However, it has been my experience that many, (based on those I know personally and ones I've seen on internet discussion forums), are clueless when it comes to the history of their religion, and parts of the bible. My intent was not to step on any toes, I was just pointing out what I see where I live. With that said I would like to add, that when I see ones like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, etal spewing their vile and hate I am completely disgusted with all of conservative christianity. People can believe what they wish, but I don't have to buy off on it, nor do I have to have any respect for it.

 

Kudu I checked the site for Scouting For All. Interesting to say the least. The gay issue, the other tough nut to crack.....(no pun intended). Things have gotten sooooo complicated, and no easy answers. I wouldn't want to see the BSA back down from it's stand on gays, especially in leadership roles. I feel sorry for gays, both men and women, because that lifestyle has got to be hell. And it isn't like it's a lifestyle choice but DNA at work. Nobody would choose that sort of life to my thinking.

[Prairie_Scouter]

I have friends who are gay and they would say that their lives are just fine, thank you, for the most part. The only time they run into trouble is when they are discriminated against or are made the victims of bigotry. They're no different than any other victimized group in that respect.

[funscout]

Bobanon,

 

I am a conservative Christian who is dismayed by the hatred that some Christians spew. I do not watch televangelists for that very reason. If everyone would just ask themselves, "What would Jesus do?" (maybe the televangelists need one of those bracelets?) then there would be no hate in this world.

 

I am not a biblical scholar, but here are some verses that all angry Christians should review: Matthew 5:43-45 (this is Jesus speaking) "You have heard the law of Moses says, 'Love your neighbor' and hate your enemy. But I say, love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven." (This is from the version of the Bible that is called "The Book." I find it much easier to understand than other versions.)

 

We have an awesome pastor at my Methodist church. He calls himself a "chocolate pastor in a vanilla church." Yes, he is black, and 99% of our congregation is white. Bobanon, I'd love for you to speak with him. Here is an example of how he reached a surly teen that he had never met before. While standing outside our church enjoying the weather, one day, Pastor saw a sullen looking teen walk by. Being the friendly, loving person that he is, Pastor called out, "Hello there!" Teen gave him a dirty look and kept walking. Pastor, in a joking voice, called out, "What, you're too cool to talk to this Pastor?" The teen then said, "I don't believe in any of your *!@#!" Pastor responded, "Well, I believe in you." That got Teen's attention. He stopped and asked, "Why would you believe in me? You don't even know me!" Pastor said, "I believe in you because I believe in a God who loves you and believes in you." From this simple exchange, a boy's life was turned around. The teen asked to come in and talked for 45 minutes to our Pastor. He has since been e-mailing Pastor and is enthusiastic about learning about a religion that would have people love him despite how unloveable he sees himself.

 

I love going to our church!!!!

 

So, Bobanon, please don't think ALL conservative Christians are hateful. Please remember that Christians ARE human and we all sin at times. That's why Jesus' gift of forgiving our sins is such an awesome, mind-boggling thing.

 

If anyone out there is interested in learning more about Christianity, don't stop if you find a Pastor who isn't acting truly Christian. Keep looking for one like our Pastor. If anyone is interested in e-mailing this wonderful man, just PM me and I'll put you in touch.

 

Not surprisingly, our Youth Group (as well as adult attendance) has grown by leaps and bounds since he came to our church.

[Fishsqueezer]

Kudu

 

I think my Nike was right on, but if you don't like that comparison then look at common usage that has also been protected under trademark - think "what can brown do for you" with UPS and FedEx for Federal Express. The common usage was associated with the trade name and therefore came under trademark protection. Scouts, scouting, and boy scouts are all common usages of Boy Scouts of America and therefore can be legitimately claimed under the trademark and as you say, even B-P wanted to protect the name scouts. The fact that England has 3 different scout groups and the name could not be trademarked is irrelevant to US trademark law. There really isn't much to the affidavits since they are small screen shots related to the sale of the materials so your point on that was lost on me.

 

[GS-CS_leader]

I'm just thankful (to "God"?) that the current national BSA officials (or local officials with the power to revoke a person's BSA membership) are unable to read minds and thus determine whether or not any individual's "belief in God" conforms to what THEY think it needs to be in order to be a member of the BSA. Otherwise, I'm quite sure that a lot of good people, both scouts and scouters, would be kicked out, including many people who are not simply atheists or agnostics. I think that the BSA policy-makers either do not understand or would like to ignore the fact that many religions do not have belief systems that even remotely resemble those in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. However, they know that it would be problematic (for both government sponsorship as well as general PR) if they started to have an official list of permissible religions and required official religious organization membership, or even if they explicitly excluded particular religions. But for many religions, it is not simply that they use a different name for "God", but rather their concepts of one, many, or no dieties, are just completely different from Christianity. (Note that believing in a religion that doesn't really have any kind of diety like the Christian God is not the same as being an atheist.) On the other hand, I also know individuals with these different beliefs for whom if you look at all their *actions* you would find that they are models of all the scouting ideals in all other ways.

 

And if those BSA officials could read MY mind? It would depend on when they chose to peek into my thoughts, as my own religious beliefs have varied over my lifetime.

[Bobanon]

Prairie_Scouter,

 

I was afraid I was going to come off as a homophobe, I'm not. From my perspective the gay lifestyle would or is hell. I suppose that a gay person wouldn't consider him or herself living a hellish lifestyle. My bad. I have several gay friends, and wouldn't ever think of telling them I thought their lifestyle was hell. I don't think it bad from a moral or ethical stand point, not my thing, but whatever floats someone's boat is their business. And yes too, discrimination of any sort is bad.

 

Besides, it wouldn't take much to convince me that gays wouldn't be a problem with the organization. The psychological fact is gay people are not child molesters. Child molestation comes from the heterosexual community, not the gay community. And as a general rule molesters are known to their victims.

 

I was speaking more of the BSA having to fighting one fight at a time. At some point in the future the BSA will have to address the homosexual issue. National has bought some time with recent law suit victories, but how long will those last?

 

Funscout,

 

Nice post and thank you. I know there are good Christians out there, and many of them are like yourself who seem to be practicing Jesus admonition to love everyone. Good too that you have a Parson that you love. That makes a lot of difference. And I am extremely impressed he is black in a more or less white parish. Good for the lot of you. The only difference between the races is our own narrow minded preconceived notions. People are alike no matter the color of their skin, and only the simple minded think otherwise.

 

I myself am a Unitarian Universalist, although I was raised Presbyterian. There is a very dynamic group of people at the UU I attend. There are Christians, several Buddhist and Taoist, and seekers such as myself. I find Taoism to be pretty fascinating. The best analogy I can come up with is the Tao is somewhat like the force from Star Wars, but more complicated and not something one can call upon or conjure up. Taoism was morphed into a religious philosophy by some, but that wasnt Lao Tzus intent when he wrote the Tao Te Ching. I have too many unanswerable questions for Christianity, and I wont take anything on faith, and this applies to other religious philosophies too.

 

Funscout, you and I have a commonality in , (you being a Methodist, and I being a former Presbyterian), that Pat Robertson wouldnt consider either of us Christian, (assuming I still made that claim). Old Pat said Presbyterians, Methodist and Episcopalians are the spirit of the anti-Christ. To Old Pat I say what hogwash! It is the more liberal of the Christian denominations that give credit to the religion. I see the three vilified by Pat Robertson as the ones living Jesus dictum of loving one another. And, loving God and loving one another was what Jesus said were the most important commandment of the Judeo-Christian God when asked.

 

 

 

GS-CS_leader.

 

You posted; But for many religions, it is not simply that they use a different name for "God", but rather their concepts of one, many, or no dieties, are just completely different from Christianity. (Note that believing in a religion that doesn't really have any kind of diety like the Christian God is not the same as being an atheist.) On the other hand, I also know individuals with these different beliefs for whom if you look at all their *actions* you would find that they are models of all the scouting ideals in all other ways.

 

Great post!!! And right on the money. This is exactly what Im getting at. There are too many people where I live, and where I work with Scouting that equate religion wholly with Christianity, although they would non slight approval to someone Jewish. This is s small world view indeed, and something I deal with on a day to day basis.

 

Being a Christian, or whatever doesnt automatically give a person the high ground, even though there are those who think it does. Actions speak louder than words and I agree with your; I also know individuals with these different beliefs for whom if you look at all their *actions* you would find that they are models of all the scouting ideals in all other ways. Being or believing this or that doesnt make you a good person, it is the good works you do.

 

The national organization has a pretty strong horizontal view on many things, religion being one. Change from the inside out is best, and perhaps in our own small way we are doing that now even if only one or two people are changed by the discourse in this forum discussion.

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

Fishsqueezer writes:

 

I think my Nike was right on, but if you don't like that comparison then look at common usage that has also been protected under trademark - think "what can brown do for you" with UPS and FedEx for Federal Express. The common usage was associated with the trade name and therefore came under trademark protection.

 

This common usage became associated with the trade names after the trade name was established. Before the BSA, between the years 1908 and 1910 the common usage of "Boy Scouts" was the popular game of Patrol camping in the woods and working on the three mastery levels of Scouting: Tenderfoot through First Class, as outlined in the book Scouting for Boys which B-P had initially offered as a jolly good game to be played free of any central Scouting corporation.

 

Previous to Baden-Powell's use, the term "Boy Scout" had been made popular in 1900-1906 by the publisher of "The True Blue War Library" to "describe the adventures in the Transvaal of 'Harry St George' a heroic figure. The story had been already been serialized for the best part of six years, making Harry a cult figure of Boys literature." Previous to that famous "Harry," the term "Boy Scout" had been used by "Aldine Publishing in 1899 in "The New Buffalo Bill Library" in a Buffalo Bill story to describe "Buffalo Bill's most trusted Scouts....Harry White a youngster of seventeen."

 

As for the actual content of Scouting, Ernest Seton had contested both the BSA's monopoly on Scouting, and Baden-Powell's book Scouting for Boys because some of the structure of Scouting had been lifted from Seton's 1906 book The Birch Bark Roll. So B-P was forced under oath to invent a backstory for Scouting to aid the BSA against Seton and the American branch of the British Boy Scouts before he lost control of Scouting as a world-movement as he had lost his monopoly in the UK to the British Boy Scouts (The British Boy Scout's "Order of World Scouts" [OWS] preceeded B-P's "World Organization of the Scout Movement" [WOSM] by eleven [11] years!).

 

These topics are discussed in depth in Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell which also credits Michael Foster for some of the research, see:

 

http://www.netpages.free-online.co.uk/sha/bscout.htm

 

The BSA's spin on B-P's testimony on their behalf can be found at The Inquiry Net:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/traditional/b-p/deposition.htm

 

Scouts, scouting, and boy scouts are all common usages of Boy Scouts of America and therefore can be legitimately claimed under the trademark

 

Again, they were in common usage before the BSA was incorporated. Congress granting the BSA "special rights" to these words is like granting "Little League" a trademark on the term "baseball."

 

The free market is what keeps Little League from being taken over by the religious right. Baseball doesn't need secret bylaws, so why does Scouting?

 

and as you say, even B-P wanted to protect the name scouts.

 

As an afterthought.

 

The fact that England has 3 different scout groups and the name could not be trademarked is irrelevant to US trademark law.

 

Yes. I just offer that information to Americans who simply do not realize that Scouts in other countries have freedom of choice. I don't have any understanding of US trademark law or how the YouthScouts' case will be argued. Even if the case gets as far as the Ninth Circuit, I doubt if it will get a sympathetic hearing in Ralph Nader's Supreme Court.

 

But the publicity would cause some Americans to begin to think outside of the BSA box. After all, the BSA was forced to share their government-granted "special rights" Charter with the GSUSA to justify excluding girls from Scouting. Perhaps religions that do not recognize the god named "God" as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings to be necessary for the best type of citizenship will, at long last, wake from their slumber and move to have the Congressional Charter extended to include secular Scouting associations that do not exclude those who hold a more democratic definition of citizenship. This is far more logical than trying to change the BSA.

 

There really isn't much to the affidavits since they are small screen shots related to the sale of the materials so your point on that was lost on me.

 

Nothing very deep, Fishsqueezer :-) I just find the BSA's justifications for protecting the word "Scout" from the Girl Scouts amusing and somehow timeless:

 

"In a mining community the boys are extremely virile because of environment, etc., and the fact of the organization of seven troop of Girl Scouts has resulted in the boys being buffooned and jested around by those who do not want to be anything at all and accused of being nice little girls and nice little sissies. Whenever the boy attempts to comply he is confronted with the remark, 'Well, isn't Jenny So and So a Scout, too?' I maintain that it is a mighty serious problem from the psychological point of view."

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm

 

Kudu

 

(This message has been edited by Kudu)

[Prairie_Scouter]

I think that whole issue of gays in Scouting is really overblown in relation to the possible impact of allowing gays in leadership or scout positions. The arguments about safety and such are really just vapor. I've seen absolutely no studies linking gays to child abuse at any higher levels than in the general community, and I think that there are none. Personally, I think that these arguments are just a smoke screen. The issue of gays in Scouting is largely a religious issue that is not shared, I think, among all religious sects represented in Scouting. It's a religious issue, not a Scouting issue, and shouldn't even be a part of the discussion. If the Mormons, or Catholics, or Protestants, or whoever (just examples), want to keep gays out of their congregations, then that's their choice, but to inflict their views on the Scouting community is something else.

 

I agree that BSA will have to address it at some point, if for no other reason than to appear not too far out of the mainstream of American values. But, it probably won't happen as long as we have national BSA leadership hiding behind the "we're a private organization and we can do what we want, nyah, nyah" mantra.

[Fishsqueezer]

Kudu,

 

I compliment you on your knowledge of scouting history. I daresay you could compile your posts into a scouting history book. I would say, however, that your references to previous use of scouts is irrelevant to the case. The words federal and express were in very common usage prior to the company trademarking the name. That doesn't negate their trademark due to common usage of the abbreviation of their name. Common usage is established after the brand trademark as you stated in your post. Boy Scouts of American was trademarked - the other scout names were not. A first dibs kind of thing. After the trademark was established the common usage of scouts came to refer to BSA. I could trademark a group called Kudu Kids. Even though that is your common usage handle, it does not give you marketing rights to that name until it is trademarked. Should you then establish a kids group using the Kudu name, I would then have a legal right to sue you to cease and desist based on American trademark law. The history of scouting has nothing to do with trademark protection - it is a legal question. The BSA has the legal right to the name and the related common usage - that is the law. Whether that is the "right" thing is where opinions weigh in.

 

I'm not sure how we Americans are restricted from free choice and free market. We have BSA and Campfire and a number of other groups that have been mentioned on this board that we can join or attend. The only restriction is the legal protection of a trademarked name. A free market means we have choice of brand name items - not that all items get to call themselves the same brand name.

 

I am curious about your obsession with BSA. If it is such a vile thing, why would you want to be associated with the name? One would think you would want to distance yourself from it as far as possible. Personally, I think the KKK is a vile organization so I would avoid any organization that had Klan in its name. It would seem that you would be the same way about Scouts. As you say, you are in England and you do have choice;-)

 

BTW - little league does not have the word baseball in its name and common usage is for the sport not the organization so the analogy doesn't fly.

 

You assertion that the bylaws of the BSA are secret also appears questionable, at least in my council. As indicated earlier, I emailed the council office to request a copy. Within a few hours they offered to copy and mail me all 3 books of bylaws. If it is that easy to get a copy then they hardly count as secret.

 

Perhaps it is not the scouting name that fuels your fire but that scouting is a faith based organization. One need only to dilute the relationship of scouting with religious faith to begin removing faith from scouting completely?

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Before we "secularize" the BSA, I think we should examine what would be lost. Alcoholics Anonymous started with a program which is now almost universal in self help groups called the 12 step program. Belief in God, or a power higher than yourself is the foundation of the program.

 

Now, I dont get out much, but is there a movement to get the AA to change its 12 step program?

 

 

[funscout]

Bobanon, I was also raised Presbyterian. Since I don't watch televangelists I had no idea that Pat Robertson considered me a non-Christian! I guess I have a double whammy against me since I've been both Presbyterian AND Methodist!

 

I don't want to offend any Catholics, but my mother-in-law thinks my boys and I are not going to Heaven since we are not Catholic. My husband attends church with us, but has retained his Catholic membership, so I guess he can still get into Heaven according to her view! I love my mother-in-law and have learned not to discuss religion with her, and that I can never change her views. I also know that most Catholics do not think like her today.

 

Prairie_Scouter: A true Christian would never turn away a fellow human. Although Christians oppose the practice of homosexuality, we should never reject a Homosexual in our church. We are taught that you can hate the sin, but should still love the sinner. Besides, it doesn't make sense to turn away those who don't live up to the Christian ideals. After all, what is church for? It is to allow a fellowship with each other and with God, in order that we can HELP each other grow spiritually.

 

It makes me angry when I see people do bad things and call it Christian. I'm sure there are plenty of TRUE Muslims out there who are also angry when they see Muslim extremists promoting hate and terror.

[funscout]

Bobanon, I was also raised Presbyterian. Since I don't watch televangelists I had no idea that Pat Robertson considered me a non-Christian! I guess I have a double whammy against me since I've been both Presbyterian AND Methodist!

 

I don't want to offend any Catholics, but my mother-in-law thinks my boys and I are not going to Heaven since we are not Catholic. My husband attends church with us, but has retained his Catholic membership, so I guess he can still get into Heaven according to her view! I love my mother-in-law and have learned not to discuss religion with her, and that I can never change her views. I also know that most Catholics do not think like her today.

 

Prairie_Scouter: A true Christian would never turn away a fellow human. Although Christians oppose the practice of homosexuality, we should never reject a Homosexual in our church. We are taught that you can hate the sin, but should still love the sinner. Besides, it doesn't make sense to turn away those who don't live up to the Christian ideals. After all, what is church for? It is to allow a fellowship with each other and with God, in order that we can HELP each other grow spiritually.

 

It makes me angry when I see people do bad things and call it Christian. I'm sure there are plenty of TRUE Muslims out there who are also angry when they see Muslim extremists promoting hate and terror.

[gwd-scouter]

I don't usually weigh in on the religion topics, but...

 

Funscout: your comment "I don't want to offend any Catholics, but my mother-in-law thinks my boys and I are not going to Heaven since we are not Catholic" gave me a giggle.

 

Here's the opposite side of that: When I moved here to the middle of the Bible Belt, I was told by many good Southern Baptists that I AM NOT going to Heaven because I AM a Catholic.

 

Go figure. Guess I'll just resign myself to the fact that the pearly gates will not open for me.

[GernBlansten]

Of the 10,000 or so religious sects, denominations and organized belief systems, every one of them thinks they are right and not only are the other 9,999 wrong, but are they are on the fast lane to Hell.

[GS-CS_leader]

Most religions and belief systems believe that they are "correct"; the few that don't think that no one knows for sure what is true. I myself believe that some of my beliefs are irrational, but does it mean anything for a person to believe that his "beliefs" are wrong?

 

However, there ARE some religions that believe that theirs is only one of many true paths. For example, the Bahai, Hindu, Unitarian/Universalist religions all believe in the validity of other religions. So while they believe that they are right, they don't think everyone else is wrong, let alone "damned" (a concept that doesn't exist in most non-Christian religions). I'll admit that the tolerant religions seem to be far outnumbered by the ones who think everyone else is wrong, but I think it is important to recognize that tolerant religions do exist.

 

I think I understand why someone like GernBlansten might have a negative view of religion in general, but it's always true that some can give the rest of a group a bad name. That's why I always remind the CS in my den that they must try especially hard to behave well when out in public in their CS uniform: when people see them in uniform, they may tend to associate what they see with CS in general.(This message has been edited by GS-CS_leader)