Question on BSA and religion.

[Kudu]

Bobanon writes:

 

I know the BSA does not allow atheist, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters.

 

When you joined the BSA you agreed to obey its rules & regulations. These rules are not widely distributed but if you want to read them you can make an appointment with your local BSA District Executive to view them under his supervision (eyes only). Of course wanting to know what the rules are may brand you not being "Obedient" and "Loyal" :-)

 

From what the BSA writes on its website ("What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?"), it is reasonable to assume that it is against the rules to be agnostic.

 

Not only is it against the rules to express the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknowable, but when you signed your Scouter application, you affirmed that:

 

"The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this FUNDAMENTAL need of good citizenship should be kept before them. [emphasis added]"

 

Most of the Buddhists, Unitarians, and Reform Jews that I know would have a problem with that, especially the second sentence, but that is what you signed.

 

Perhaps there needs to be a concerted effort from within the organization to change. The BSA will eventually have to move into the 21st Century....

 

The BSA has no incentive to change. Those who refuse to sign the Declaration of Religious Principle are not in Scouting, and those who are in Scouting have not only affirmed that they believe in a god who putters around with their daily lives, but more importantly, have affirmed that children should be instructed that people who don't believe in this kind of god are not good citizens.

 

The BSA, fresh from its victory in the Supreme Court which affirmed that as a private organization it can set its own membership rules, has no need to change its policies. Moreover, Bush just signed the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2006 (H.R.1815), which includes the "Support Our Scouts Act of 2005" (Section 1073), which helps insulate the BSA from local anti-discrimination laws. So, 21st Century legislation is already moving in the BSA's favor, and the looming mid-term elections "get out the vote" issue of gay adoption promises to move Congress even further to the right.

 

I voted Libertarian in 2004, and will do so at the mid term elections, and in 2008.

 

Then you should understand that the BSA is absolutely delighted with individuals and reformist organizations (such as "Scouting for All") that merely seek to change the BSA, be it from within or from without. For libertarians the problem with the BSA should not be its polices.

 

The problem libertarians and moderate Republicans should have with the BSA is that the government established this self-described "religious organization" with a monopoly on Scouting. The "faith-based" BSA has "special rights" to the word "Scouting."

 

Establish a free market that allows alternative Scouting associations, such as Baden-Powell Scouting, based on the progressive spiritual views of Baden-Powell and his father, and free minds will follow.

 

Kudu

 

See "B-P & Nature Knowledge": http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

 

[Trevorum]

Kudu, I think I understand where you're coming from, and I don't disagree with much of what you say, in principle. However, I would like to debate one small, but (I feel) very important, point.

 

You said that by signing the DRP, Scouts have affirmed "... they believe in a god who putters around with their daily lives..."

 

This is dandy rhetoric, but I think it vastly misstates the BSA position. BSA does not demand belief in an active, intervening god, or even a personal god. "BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion" (BSA position statement)

 

While a majority of Scouts and Scouters probably profess belief in the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity of the Old Testament, this is not a requirement (as you certainly know!). Scouts and Scouters are free to use the majority's definition of god, that of a minority, or their own personal definition.

 

That being said, I will concede that we certainly get mixed messages from National on this point and I am sure there are many people who would be pleased if BSA were to narrowly define God.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Oh boy, the "G(g)od" topic returns!

 

I have to agree that the National Office sends mixed signals on this. As one of the above posts says, all you have to do is look at the Adult application and the BSA position statement to see that they are somewhat in conflict. And that's not even getting to the issue of BSA says about atheists and citizenship. Do you really have to believe in a god or higher being in order to be a good citizen? I doubt it myself.

 

I think I've just given myself a homework assignment. I'm going to go back and find a copy of the original legislation creating the BSA and see what it says, exactly. Might be kind of interesting in terms of the current position on atheists and gays. Or not. And, just to see if it says anything in comparison to what B-P had in mind when he formed Scouting.

 

BTW, I think that the SM mentioned in an above post about getting rid of a kid who was Unitarian, was really way out of line. His opinion on what various religions are or aren't isn't relevent. It should have been brought up to the district and council.

[Newbie Den Leader]

Bobanon,

 

I would say that you meet the BSA requirement for "God". What concerns me is you say there "may be" a higher power and not "there is". As long as you can say "duty to God" and believe it, then there is no violation of BSA policy or your own conscience. The BSA does not define who God is, that is up to you.

 

21st century? The Scout Law is derived from biblical teaching, especially the 10 commandments. It has been said that The Scout Law is basically Christianity applied (walk the walk, not talk the talk). I'm a Christian with strong convictions about who God is and who he is not. At the same time, I do not force those convictions upon the Scouts. That is the job of their parents and religious community. Being a scout leader, I have received a greater appreciation and respect for different religious traditions.

 

--Jeff

[Newbie Den Leader]

Bobanon,

 

I would say that you meet the BSA requirement for "God". What concerns me is you say there "may be" a higher power and not "there is". As long as you can say "duty to God" and believe it, then there is no violation of BSA policy or your own conscience. The BSA does not define who God is, that is up to you.

 

21st century? The Scout Law is derived from biblical teaching, especially the 10 commandments. It has been said that The Scout Law is basically Christianity applied (walk the walk, not talk the talk). I'm a Christian with strong convictions about who God is and who he is not. At the same time, I do not force those convictions upon the Scouts. That is the job of their parents and religious community. Being a scout leader, I have received a greater appreciation and respect for different religious traditions.

 

--Jeff

[Kudu]

Trevorum writes:

 

You said that by signing the DRP, Scouts have affirmed "... they believe in a god who putters around with their daily lives..."

 

This is dandy rhetoric, but I think it vastly misstates the BSA position.

 

When you signed your application, you agreed that "The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

 

I don't see how you can possibly parse those words to mean anything other than belief in an active, intervening god who is not only personal, but needs to be gratefully acknowledged for his personal favors and blessings.

 

"BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion"

 

There is NO contradiction between these two policies. Once you have signed a statement recognizing God as the ruling and leading power in the universe, and agreeing that people who do not acknowledge his favors and blessings are bad citizens, then you are free to define "God" any way you like.

 

The Declaration of Religious Principle (DRP) limits Scouting to people who will sign just about anything in order to get in. If a six-year-old's father refuses to sign the DRP, the BSA will go to court to deny Scouting to that six-year-old (as you certainly know!).

 

Now is turning your back on a six-year-old boy the action of well-meaning people who do "not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion"? No, it is the action of those do not define what constitutes belief in God only for those who are willing to sign a Declaration affirming that "the recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship...."

 

Once you have signed something like that, who cares what you say you meant when you signed it?

 

Kudu

 

Establish a free market that allows alternative Scouting associations based on progressive spiritual values, and free minds will follow.

 

 

[Fishsqueezer]

Bobanon

 

You state "I also assumed there would be a portion of the members of this forum that will take the tact that I need to move on to some other endeavor. I understant their mindset fully, as I have lived my entire life in the bible belt. It has been my experience that those who scream loudest against non-xtians, and even liberal xtians, do not understand and know the history of their relgion, nor have they ever read the bible in entirity. I myself have read the bible through on two occasions and on both times came away with only uestions."

 

Is it your intention to imply that individuals that disagree with you do not fully understand the situation? The way I read your statement it could be summarized "Obviously if you don't agree with me you really don't understand as well as I do." I would suggest that your generalization and trivialization of those that disagree should be backed with a bit more proof. Most conservative Christians I know have read the bible numerous times. Maybe my experiences differ from yours.

 

 

Kudu

 

I have an adult application here in my hands. The actual wording is not what you indicated. The actual wording is:

 

"Excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore,recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policy is that the home and organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life. Only persons willing to subscribe to this Declaration of Religious Principle and to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of membership."

 

When I looked up the Declaration on the BSA website it has this definition:

 

"Religious Principle, Declaration of

The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no person can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, acknowledges the religious element in the development of youth members. However, the BSA is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious development. Its policy is that the organization or institution with which youth members are connected shall give definite attention to their religious life. Only adults willing to subscribe to this declaration of principle and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership."

 

Essentially it is the same text. I would emphasize that is says "willing to subscribe to THIS declaration" indicating that it is THE declaration.

 

As far as a free marketplace, your organization is an existing and operating scouting organization. How are you being prevented from operating as an independent alternative?

 

 

 

 

[dan]

We just had this discussion about 60 days ago, on this forum.

It went just like this thread is going.

Some poster wrote that Agnostic can be a member, because they are just confused.

Some said they would ignore policy and allow an Agnostic to be a member.

Some posters said that a Agnostic could not be a member.

Many posters told the posters that said that a Agnostic could not be a member are confused and needed to read up what a Agnostic is.

 

Merlyn posted what the BSA says about a Agnostic being a member, seems pretty cut and dried to me, but if yous want keep looking for those loop holes if you wish.

I think I am going to take the troop sod surfing this weekend after all it is not disallowed in the GTSS.

[Newbie Den Leader]

"...Baden-Powell Scouting, based on the progressive spiritual views of Baden-Powell and his father, and free minds will follow."

 

Wasn't it Baden-Powell that said that the Scout Law was "Applied Christianity"?

 

What do you mean by progressive? Progressive could mean that a person actually applies that the Scout Oath and Law to their life rather than just rote memorization.

[Kudu]

Fishsqueezer, yes, BSA applications for membership clearly indicate that what appears on the form is an "excerpt from the Declaration of Religious Principle (DPR)."

 

http://www.scouting.org/forms/28-501.pdf

 

You agree to the full DRP in the same way that you agree to all of the rules & regulations of the BSA sight unseen, only some of which appear in bold print in various BSA publications available to the public.

 

When I looked up the Declaration on the BSA website it has this definition:

 

That is from "Scouting Terms and Style," an informal collection of Scouting definitions.

 

Essentially it is the same text. I would emphasize that is says "willing to subscribe to THIS declaration" indicating that it is THE declaration.

 

Well, I would emphasize that the full sentence reads "Only adults willing to subscribe to this declaration of principle and the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America shall be entitled to certificates of leadership."

 

The Bylaws are where the full Declaration of Religious Principle appears. You may read them by making an appointment with your local Council office. They are as follows:

 

"National Council Boy Scouts of America

 

CHARTER AND BYLAWS OF THE BOY SCOUTS OF AMERICA

 

'A SCOUT IS REVERENT'

 

SECTION 1

 

Declaration of Religious Principles:

 

Clause 1. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of His favors and blessings are necessary for the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members. No matter what the religious faith of the members may be, this fundamental need of good citizenship should be kept before them. The Boy Scouts of America, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely non-sectarian in its attitude toward that religious training. Its policies that the home and the organization or group with which the member is connected shall give definite attention to religious life."

 

At one time, the full DRP appeared in many places on the BSA's Website. I believe that the only remaining instance is in a "Board of Review Training" pdf file which (for the time being) you may find by searching "18-625WB.online.doc"

 

As far as a free marketplace, your organization is an existing and operating scouting organization. How are you being prevented from operating as an independent alternative?

 

All Scouting associations in the United States that use the term "Scout" eventually receive the same "cease and desist" form letter from the BSA's legal representative. The potentially precedent-forming case to watch is that of the "YouthScouts," which is being heard in San Francisco. If the YouthScouts get a favorable ruling, the BSA must appeal to the 9th Circuit, and from there to Ralph Nader's new Supreme Court, see:

 

http://youthscouts.org/news.html

 

Dan, "sod surfing"?

 

Kudu

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Actually, I think that B-P said that "Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity". However, I don't really know what to make of that because I don't know what other text surrounded it. For all I know, the relevent passage might have been, "There are those who take the view that Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity. They would be wrong". (Now, I suspect that it doesn't say that, but anytime people take single lines out of the breadth of the writer's work, you run that danger).

 

So, now, if we're going to create a Scout philosophy out of all of the references to Christianity, regardless of what context they were made in, then I guess we have a BSA based on Christ-based beliefs. Time to boot out those pesky Jews and Buddhists.

[evmori]

An agnostic & an atheist are not the same. An agnostic believes in a higher power but isn't sure about it. An atheist doesn't believe in any type of higher power.

 

And yes we had this discussion before!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Fishsqueezer]

Kudu

 

I will have to cede the bylaws question to you since I have not made the effort to obtain a copy. Since we have been in this discussion I have emailed my council to request a copy. We'll see what happens.

 

As to the registered trademark of boy scouts, I'm not sure how you have a complaint. It is a national registered trademark name. You would get the same response should you try to start Nike boys or NFL players, or associate with any other trademarked name. I suspect it would not go very far. Just because you want to use it and you share the same heritage there is no conferred right to use the name.

 

[Kudu]

Newbie writes:

 

Wasn't it Baden-Powell that said that the Scout Law was "Applied Christianity"?

 

According to Tim Jeal, B-P wrote in the introduction to a 1917 pamphlet entitled Scouting and Christianity "Scouting is nothing less than applied Christianity."

 

What do you mean by progressive?

 

Tim Jeal covers the influence of the progressive spiritual movement on the origins of Scouting in his biography Baden-Powell.

 

Progressive could mean that a person actually applies the Scout Oath and Law to their life rather than just rote memorization.

 

Yes, that is B-P in a nutshell if by "applies" you mean action rather than belief.

 

Prairie_Scouter writes:

 

So, now, if we're going to create a Scout philosophy out of all of the references to Christianity, regardless of what context they were made in, then I guess we have a BSA based on Christ-based beliefs. Time to boot out those pesky Jews and Buddhists.

 

The pamphlet was aimed at a Christian audience. By "Christian" B-P often meant paying the Golden Rule forward. Supposedly variations of the "Golden Rule" can be found in all religions. Likewise the mystical aspect of Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Deep Woods" (spiritual retreat to the wilderness), is common to many religions including Buddhism.

 

Unlike his famous father, B-P was known to back-peddle on his more controversial religious beliefs. "But he never regretted what he had said, nor that he had invited Muslims and Buddhists to recite prayers at Gilwell. He quoted Carlyle as saying: 'The religion of a man is not the creed he professes but his life--what he acts upon, and knows of life, and his duty in it. A bad man who believes in a creed is no more religious than the good man who does not.' Baden-Powell's public refusal to countenance the exclusive claims of any one religion was accompanied by increasingly fervent references to 'God' in his speeches."

 

For additional progressive religious excerpts from Tim Jeal's biography Baden-Powell, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

Kudu

 

[Kudu]

As to the registered trademark of boy scouts, I'm not sure how you have a complaint. It is a national registered trademark name.

 

The term "boy scouts" was in use before Baden-Powell decided to use it. He was unable to get a trademark on the term in England, thus the UK still has at least three different Scouting associations. When his chief rival, the British Boy Scouts, refused to join the BSA's growing monopoly in the United States, B-P was able to help the BSA head them off. However, B-P's testimony is controversial and the historic accuracy of his claims in the trial that granted the BSA its monopoly is explored in Appendix II of Tim Jeal's Baden-Powell.

 

You would get the same response should you try to start Nike boys or NFL players, or associate with any other trademarked name.

 

The correct analogy would be to Nike trademarking the term "sneakers" or the NFL trademarking the term "football."

 

"Boy Scouts of America" is a legitimate trademark, however, granting "special rights" to the generic term "scouts" so that a "faith-based" "religious organization" can exclude others from Scouting required an act of Congress. Acts of Congress can be modified.

 

I suspect it would not go very far.

 

If the "YouthScouts" have any chance at all, it is in San Francisco and then the Ninth Circuit. If it gets that far, then it will have gone far enough for some people to begin to think in terms of a free marketplace rather than tying to reform a government-established monopoly.

 

Just because you want to use it and you share the same heritage there is no conferred right to use the name.

 

True enough, but the BSA's monopoly on Scouting is not absolute. In 1924 the BSA tried to force the GSUSA to change its name. The BSA claimed that the use of the name "Girl Scouts" inflicted psychological damage on the boys and the name should be "Girl Guides" as Lord Baden Powell recommended.

 

The BSA's affidavits make for amusing reading, see:

 

http://inquiry.net/adult/bsa_vs_gsusa.htm

 

Kudu