Question on BSA and religion.

[Bobanon]

I know the BSA does not allow athiest, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters.

 

I am wonder this because I am a long time Scouter and an Agnostic. I feel some internal ethical turmoil over this question of religion in the overall BSA program. Personally I'd like to see the BSA drop the whole issue of religious belief, and move on into the 21st Century. This of course won't happen, but it would solve some of the problems facing the BSA today.

 

Can a perons be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter? I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god.

 

 

[EagerLeader]

Bobanon, just to warn you... you've opened a can of worms here!

I feel as you do, in that I would like to see the BSA drop the religious requirements. But, as a private institution, they can require almost anything as they see fit.

That being said, I struggle with the same internal turmoil. I cannot profess an open belief in a higher power, but neither will I discount the possibility without proof. It has made assisting my sons complete their "God" Achievements as Cubs rather difficult.

There will be some in this forum who will tell you to get out if you can't follow the rules, but the rules regarding agnostics are very vague.

 

EL

[Pint]

As part of my leader training (UK Scout Association ) i was recently asked about Relegion and my beliefs which upto then was something that no one had ever asked me.

When I was asked about my beliefs i found it an imensly hard question to answer, do I believe in God? - im not sure, at this stage in my life religion isnt a central part of my day to day life, however i do believe that theres something out there, what - i dont know.

Call it a higher power, call it god, call it a higher power, whatever you want.

 

and those opinions were good enough for me to get through that small piece of leader training.

 

 

[Bobanon]

Hello Eager Leader,

 

Thanks for the insight on the forum.

 

I figure there are many like us out there who have the same ethical dilima as you and I.

 

I also assumed there would be a portion of the members of this forum that will take the tact that I need to move on to some other endeavor. I understant their mindset fully, as I have lived my entire life in the bible belt. It has been my experience that those who scream loudest against non-xtians, and even liberal xtians, do not understand and know the history of their relgion, nor have they ever read the bible in entirity. I myself have read the bible through on two occasions and on both times came away with only uestions.

 

Perhaps there needs to be a concerted effort from within the organization to change. The BSA will eventually have to move into the 21st Century and allow the 1950's mindset that is so pervasive now to die. I know so many who look back on the 1950's as the halcyon days of American society, yet the 1950's were anything but ideal, and to think differently is nothing more than dillusion.

 

I think it would be better for the BSA to make changes on it's own than to await court ordered changes. And court ordered change will come. The movement towards a more secular BSA will be easier and better if we do it ourselves, and if we are forced to kicking and screaming.

 

Looking at the current Presidential administration's and Congress'es many transgressions on the Constitution and out right dirty dealings I forsee a shift come next November in both Houses of Congress. The shift will be in retaliation for lies, deceipt, and excesses. The GOP had a golden opportunity to do right, but have taken the low road at every opportunity.

 

When the Democrats regain control of Congress the BSA will be required to go on the defensive even more than now. This is a cold hard fact of life. We will be better off changing of our own volition than being forced.

[Kahuna]

Indeed, Bobanon, you have struck a goldmine of hoopla and probably this thread will go 10 pages.

 

Personally, it doesn't seem to me that Scouting excludes agnostics. In Buddhism, you don't necessarily believe in gods or God and certainly (most) don't believe that there is a god dispensing justice or intervening in affairs of this world. Yet, there are many Buddhists in Scouting. The same is true of Unitarian Universalists, although the UU relationship with Scouting is a bit tenous at times.

 

The BSA will eventually change on this issue, but who knows when? In the meantime, I think everybody has to decide for himself or herself whether they qualify under the Statement of Religious Principles. As a leader, nobody will ever cross examine you on your religious beliefs unless you bring it up. For boys, it is a different issue, but I have met very few truly agnostic or atheistic boys.

[OldGreyEagle]

Just how do the Democrats stand for truth justice and the American way? Have they shown themselves to be beacons of virture in the last how many ever years? We have tape of CLinton, Kerry, the other CLinton and many other democrats saying WMD were in Iraq and Pres Clinto n calling for regime change. I think we went into Iraq for good reason, I dont think the post war strategy was as well planned as the war itself. What have the democrats demonstrated besides outraged fingerpointing? Any plans? ANy programs? What are they? How do they work?

 

BTW just as disgusted with the republicans, people decry the lack of electorate voting, periods like this explain why,

 

 

[Bobanon]

Sorry Old Eagle, my mistake. I in no uncertain terms meant for my post to sound like the Democratic Party has the moral high ground. Even in the loosest definition of the term do the Democrats hold teh high ground on any issue.

 

In my opinion the Democrats and Republicans are equally sorry. I voted for Bush in 2000. After 8 years of Caligula of the Ozards I thought it a no brainer. I thought it a no brainer in 96 with the choice of a decorated Vet and a draft dodger when I voted for Bob Dole.

 

I consider myself to be a fiscal conservative, and my definition of what a conservative should be like means being like Barry Goldwater. I became totally disguste with the GOP after 2000. I was all for going into Afghanistan after Al Queda, but was totall against going into Iraq when it was first even suggested. Iraq had been marginalized completely during and after Gulf War 1. Hussein should have been taken out there is not doubt. But, he could have been taken out by a patient hit team.

 

Bush is no more a conservative than is Bill CLinton or John Kerry. I voted Libertarian in 2004, and will do so at the mid term elections, and in 2008.

 

If I were in a position to call the shots I would want the U.S. to stop being the world's policeman and to mind our own business. We have done much good in the past 100 years overseas. However, we are now one of the most hated, if not the most hated country. We have problems here at home that require more attention than they've been given. Let's take care of our own for a while, and if the rest of the world, especially the middle east want to go at it like drunk monkey's, well, let them. We need their oil, and they need our food and other consumer products. Let the market dictate trade, not government. "They government that governs least, governs best" - Thomas Jefferson.

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Well then ok, back to the topic at hand...

 

BSA, as I understand it, requires a belief in a power higher than yourself. Thats it, it sounds like you do, so I dont see an issue.

[Trevorum]

Welcome, Bobanon!

The official BSA policy is always worth repeating:

 

"BSA does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion."

[GernBlansten]

How does a non-church going Eagle candidate satisfy his BOR that he is qualified to be an Eagle scout? Without a preacher, minister or iman to write a letter of recomendation, what can this scout do to satisfy this requirement?

[OldGreyEagle]

In the Council I serve, an Eagle candidate without a church may use his parents as the reference he does his duty to God

[GernBlansten]

Bobanon,

I share many of your same views. Although I am not an agnostic, my religion has no churches to worship in. I'm a Deist like many of our founding fathers. My church is the woods, the forests and the sea. I try to take my children there as often as possible to worship the wonderful creation that we are all part of. I too fear that BSA will turn their respective shoulder on me and my son because we fall outside of the normal structure of organized religion. I fear that BSA will become a Christian centric religous organization instead of a youth leadership one. We (my son and I) remain quite during discussions of religion in our troop. We have no interest in prostelyzing our beliefs on others. We respectfully bow our heads during grace and Sunday camp service, however we do not believe in the power of prayer. We say the pledge of allegiance without pause, but if they dropped the "Under God" phrase, it would have little impact on us. I think most scouters don't have an issue with us being part of scouting. There are some who would like us kicked out, but I think the majority welcome us. I think there are many of us out there, quietly delivering the BSA program we have grown to respect and love.

[Trevorum]

"We respectfully bow our heads during grace and Sunday camp service..."

 

Gern, I have never understood the ritual of bowing one's head. During prayer, my way is to turn my face up towards the heavens, not down and away.

[Kaji]

From what I've seen, it really depends on the unit leadership in the end. I had a friend who was just about to make Eagle, but when an ASM (who was the founding SM for the troop some 30 years prior, for reference) was giving him his scoutmaster conference, the fact that the boy was Unitarian came up. Said ASM considers Unitarians to be tantamount to atheists, and so as a result basically had the boy thrown out of the troop (he ended up disappearing from day to day functions within the troop afterward due to the backlash, though). If your current unit becomes hostile to your beliefs, then so long as you don't have a mandate from your SE saying you've been expelled, you can always move to another unit.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bobanon asks:

I know the BSA does not allow athiest, however you never read or see anything on the subject of agnosticism. What is the BSA policy on Agnostic Scouts and Scouters.

 

From the BSA's official legal website:

http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm

...

Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?

 

A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.

...

 

Can a perons be an Agnostic Scout or Scouter? I believe there may be a higher power, but not a personal god.

 

I would say the official BSA policy right now is "may be a higher power" is not good enough. You have to definitely believe in one or more gods, or they kick you out. Of course, local enforcement of this rule varies considerably.