Sweeping it under the carpet

[Rooster7]

Does anyone from the Atlanta area, for example, have information that the Scouting professionals there are, instead, doing a stellar, or at least, nominally successful, job?

 

Thats an interesting approach. Sort of sounds like guilty until proven innocent. Does anyone have any information on Prairie_Scouter to indicate hes a good person or at least, someone that should not be held in contempt? Otherwise, what everybody has been saying about him must be true.

 

[BrentAllen]

P-S,

If you want to believe that someone in NY knows more about the Atlanta Area Council than I do, that is your business. As I have mentioned before, I am a Cubmaster, District Activities Chair for the Hightower Trail District and was Cub Scout Chair for the Council's Scouters Academy. That is to say, I take a lot of interest in what is happening at the District and Council levels. I also happen to know the SM for the unit that runs the boyscoutsfortruth.com web page. So you choose who you want to believe - me (who doesn't have the need to hide behind some silly alias) or some unnamed individual 1000 miles away.

The previous SE, David Larkin, was guilty of one thing - being too aggressive with wanting to grow the program. He loved Scouting so much he wanted it spread far and wide in the AAC. How terrible! Unfortunately, he trusted those who worked as DD's and DE's. There was pressure to grow the program, as there is in just about any business, and some took the fraudulent path to generate their numbers. This all came to light when the boyscoutsfortruth.com crowd went to David Larkin to ask about fundraising and money. When Larkin found the numbers he was signing off on were inflated, he took responsibility and resigned.

Other details. I saw the SM for the boyscoutsfortruth.com at the Scout Shop about 2 months ago. He said everything is fine with them now. The new SE and a bunch of staff had lunch with the Rainbow/PUSH director who had made all the complaints in the press. They are happy with the efforts being made to address their concerns.

FOS this year will probably break all previous records. In our District alone, we had the President of Chick-Fil-A speak at a breakfast for around 100 - 125 individuals that raised approx. $115,000 that morning. Other prominent business leaders were present, and have shown their support for the BSA and the AAC. I'm sure jkh would think all these business leaders and the volunteers are just being duped, but I find that impossible to believe.

So believe what you want to about Scouting in Atlanta. It makes no difference to me. I just want to point out the truth.

If you want to find out more about jkh, check out my next post.

[BrentAllen]

Just about everthing that jkh has posted has come straight from The Daily Kos web blog. In case you aren't familiar with the site, it is an extreme left wing blog site out of Berkley, CA. The creator lists three heros, one of which is Cesar Chavez. It is safe to say those who visit and participate in that site are NOT particularly interested in seeing the BSA survive. They are more likely interested in the opposite.

Visit this particular page and see if anything looks similar to the information jkh has posted.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/7/20165/02664

 

I don't think I could go so far as to call it plagarism, but it very similar. Either jkh is the same person as "xrepub" or he has copied him. I conclude that jkh is not here trying to improve the BSA or help the program. He is here spreading rumors and drivel from the far left in an effort to damage the BSA. Nothing more, nothing less. The rest of y'all can engage jkh in conversation if you wish. I see him for who he is, and I have no time for such foolishness. I am much more interested in dealing with other sincere volunteers and professionals who want to see the BSA be the best program our boys can participate in.

[Herms]

Great catch BrentAllen!!

[jkhny]

The SM behind boyscoutsfor truth was pretty clear in stating that he still believed that Council had overstated claims for "disadvantaged youth" He - like many others - came to a compromise "working within the system". If you want to stay in Scouting, you are told to shut up. In this case, I believe that is exactly what happened. He is committed to the boys he leads and wants to remain involved.

 

Of note, Atlanta variously claimed 21,000 or was it 15,000 or was it the finally found (by the auditor chosen by BSA itself) 5,000 (with only 3,400 "active") - Atlanta NEVER mustered the 1000 boys that civil rights leaders challenged them to produce in public.

 

And like so many other enrollment frauds, the DE's got the blame - though at least the SE there was honorable enough to quit. Now about the multimillion dollar Council offices built without a bid by a Board member. May be fine but it looks bad. Again, transparency shouldn't be feared if there's nothing to hide.

 

Sorry.... there are more than enough people that believe things - once again - got swept under the carpet in Atlanta like Dallas, Alabama and more.....

 

BSA has NEVER allowed independent audits of membership numbers ANYWHERE. What's to hide?

 

And if you want a BETTER source for BSA scandals you can go to the BSA anti-discrimination sites. Their documentation is pretty good - with links to the media. But - they're enemies of Boy Scouts. Horrors. But I have yet to catch a factual error in bsadiscrimination, Looks like the links in the Daily Kos piece are valid as well.... so it's not like any of these places are making stuff up. Spend some time with Google. Astounding what you can find..... way too many abuse cases compared to other groups too... but that was covered in the past.

 

It seems like the standard response is at work here.

 

1)ANY criticism of BSA is painted as an attack. It can't be true, it's lies.

2)The critic is wrong, they hate BSA. They're out to get BSA. A critic can't possibly be trying to act nobly and hold BSA to its own values.

 

Critics are supposed to

1) Shut up

or

2) LEAVE

 

It's BSA's way or the highway. Never mind if the criticisms are valid.

 

so if something is WRONG, a good Scout is supposed to ignore it.

 

No point in getting into the same old arguments but blind obedience is complicity in wrongdoing. If you fail to demand transparency and the BEST behavior from those in charge, you are complicit in any wrongdoing that occurs.

 

BSA has managed to push out some very good leaders, some very moral and ethical people..... and it tolerates some pretty intolerant and immoral ones. I'll agree that 90% of those involved are great - so why should we be tainted by the remaining 10%? And why should that 10% be allowed to take over BSA and drive good people out?

 

 

[packsaddle]

OK, I know sweeping generalizations often lead to stereotypes or prejudices, BUT, I have made a biological observation that seems to apply to organizational structures more often than not. ...Pretty much all organizational structure.

AND it might answer jkhny's final question.

 

Are you ready for it?

 

 

 

Scum rises to the top.

 

Have a nice day

[t158sm]

O.K. jkhny

You failed the assignment.

I'm beginning to think I agree with BrentAllen.

Here is what I asked you to respond to in what I posted Thursday.

 

(("Even when paid professionals are caught dead to rights in lying - like Greater Alabama - there are no consequences. "

 

You post generalities but no specifics.

 

Specifically how was MY Scout Executive caught lying?

 

I'm sure everyone who reads this would like for you to be specific in your accusations.

 

You give specifics about the SE in MY council lying and being caught, and I'll respond with what I know. (Or I'll find the answer.)

 

Simple enough, back up what you say. ))

 

jkhny are you unable to do this?

 

[jkhny]

After variously claiming 21,000 or 15,000 or 10,000 participants in a program for "disadvantaged youth" the audit commissioned by BSA Atlanta found just over 5000 - with only 3400 or so "active."

 

So... all those previous claims - made in soliciting funds, were NOT "lies"? It wasn't his job to make sure claims were accurate? It is according to BSA.

 

And even after all this, when challenged to muster 1000 boys by a local Civil Rights leader, BSA was unwilling to do so. Many still have questions about REAL enrollments.

 

If there WERE 1000 boys in this program, hold an event. If there are 5000 registered, it shouldn't be too hard to get 1000 to show up.

 

But as another stated, the powers that be in Atlanta are far happier to have all of this die down. It was an embarassment. So.... "investigate", claim the problem's fixed and "move on."

 

And maybe, possibly, in Atlanta it IS fixed. If so, great. But don't go claiming that the process was open and transparent and that many people aren't left with legitimate questions.

 

It seems like you're employing the ususal semantic techniques at evasion..... The SE didn't lie. Well, please exaplain the gross discrepancies in numbers.

 

"It wasn't the SE, he wasn't lying...." "the DE that said HE was pressured to lie about numbers was actually the one lying"..... "the numbers ARE right it just depends on who you define as disadvantaged..." And about that new Council HQ? No bids? Maybe the guy cut the Council a deal but without competitive bids who'll ever know how much he saved (or cost) the Council?

 

I am never disappointed by the failure of BSA to be open and forthright on ANYTHING and never disappointed at the lengths BSA will go to hide and obfuscate.

 

If there's nothing to hide, why NOT let independent outsiders audit things - numbers AND money.

 

You have yet to show that ANYTHING I have stated is in error.

 

I challenge you - explain how this guy is still in BSA after lying twice about enrollments - overstating membership by 40% at Circle Ten in Dallas and by 40% in Greater Alabama. In BOTH cases the numbers were reduced by 40%. THis guy has refused to let anyone audit his past claims, and says "missing units" were caused by the ACLU. The volunteer board member that raised these concerns internally was threatened and told to shut up. After his charges were proven, he was thrown out. THIS is one of the more egregious examples of all that is wrong with BSA. One of the "clique" who bragged that "they'd never find anything wrong" when investigating him..... he remains in his job making well over $200,000 a year in an area wher median income is $40,000. He has bragged that he will be taking over as CSE after Williams.

 

Is THIS a shining example of what Scouting is all about?

 

You cannot say - straightforward and without reservation or qualification - that BSA is doing all it can to live up to its stated values and expects its paid professionals to do so.

 

There is too much evidence to the contrary.

 

 

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[OldGreyEagle]

jkhny, I am not getting through to you. Again on your last post you use a proper name of a scout professional whom you accuse of ill deeds. Now, if you peruse the forum you will find many proper names, such as Bush, Clinton, etc. They are public figures. Then there are people like that guy named Smith (the kid porno guy) and the SE from Atlanta who resigned, they have become public figures by virture of their relative news story. But when someone is mentioned, I have no idea if the charges you make are real or not. If you want to use names 99.99% of us have no idea who they are, provide a link to a story about them, otherwise I will be deleting the names as I see them.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

[BrentAllen]

It sure is nice knowing us poor ol' Southern boys got a nice Yankee lookin' out for us! It's a shame the guy ain't got a clue as to what he is talkin' about. Now I know why no one in jkh's own District or Council will give him the time of day.

 

That new Council office was built with local funds. Those local funds came from business leaders here in Atlanta - from companies like Coca-Cola, Cingular, Chick-fil-A, Georgia Power, etc... Do you really think they would donate money if the project was not going to be managed wisely, and if the contractor donating services was going to rip them off??? Again, it is funny how some no-name 1000 miles away knows more than any of us here in Atlanta. Maybe you aren't aware of the good things this Council does, but others are. Have you heard of Camp Woodruff? It is named after the Woodruffs of Coca-Cola fame. They donated $1 million for the camp. I suppose you think they are a bunch of idiots for doing so? For trusting the leadership in the Council?? This Council is not playing around with chump change.

Yes, David Larkin signed off on the numbers. The DD's and DE's signed off and said those units and those Scouts existed. Larkin trusted those DD's and DE's - who were wearing the Scout uniform - to tell the truth. He did not force nor ask them to make up the numbers. He is only guilty of setting up a system to reward those who were successful in bring boys into Scouting. What a crime. Yes, the DD's and DE's were guilty. They created this problem. If they had been truthful, this never would have happened.

I do not expect the SE to go around and know of every unit and every Scout in an 18 District Area, covering 13 metro counties in Atlanta. If you do, then you have no idea what an SE is supposed to be doing.

Come on, jkh - please dazzle us with more of your posting of internet rumors - especially the really old ones that have been around for half a year or more.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Rooster, "guilty until proven innocent" wasn't what I was getting at. I was saying that jkhny was, as far as I could tell, accurate in his assessment of what's going on in Chicago. All I was asking for was if somebody had an opposing view on the Atlanta situation, saying that those leaders were doing a creditable job. Just trying to hear another side.

 

And Herms, before we all start saying "nice catch", maybe we should visit that site and look around a bit. Is Cesar Chavez one of his heroes? Sure. But, so is an archibishop of San Salvador who was killed during the strife there while giving his homily on peace in church. His father is his 3rd hero. I dunno, doesn't sound like a bad list to me. The author also served in the U.S. military and is well-educated, according to his bio.

 

The story linked to by Brent is negative towards BSA, but that story in itself links to many other sources that one might find more reputable. Seems to me that his opinions, which one may or may not agree with, are at least pretty well researched.

 

As far as jk's information on Atlanta and others, I don't think he's pretending to be an expert in those areas. I see his coverage of that as just an extension of the problems he sees in his own council, saying, in effect, that he sees it as a bigger problem. The fact that he used other sources to gain that information, I don't see as a problem. We all do that all the time. You may not agree with what he has found, but that doesn't make the practice itself wrong.

 

 

[Rooster7]

In affect, its the same thing. If no one can say something positive about the council, then lets assume that jkhny is a reliable source and all these horrible things he's saying must be true. Remarkably close to guilty until proven innocent to me.

[Prairie_Scouter]

In reality, not even close, my friend. The request for some positive information about the Atlanta case seems reasonable to me, if such information is available from the group here. However, I wouldn't assume that the lack of such information automatically means a "guilty" verdict for anyone involved. The population here is by its nature pretty limited and so is the information that might be available from this source.

 

I've said before that I think that BSA really needs to have a squeeky clean image, and any appearances to the contrary do nothing but provide ammunition to its detractors. That doesn't mean hiding anything that's wrong so deeply that it's never found, and I'm not implying that BSA is doing that. But, if these problems truly exist, and the National office is responding by ignoring the situation or taking ineffective measures rather than stepping in strongly to "clean up", then they have only themselves to blame when the bits hit the fan. Unfortunately, if that proves to be the case, there seems to be little that we Scouters can do about it, nor anyone else, for that matter.

[jkhny]

At least two $400,000 awards have been made over all this - and more cases remain in the courts. While National media have ignored this, it has spurred a change in Idaho State laws on child abuse statutes of limitations and laws on reporting child abuse. When failures are so very clear and the wrong so very obvious, why does BSA simply refuse to hold its professionals responsible for their failures? It is hard to claim any "moral high ground" when such things happen. BSA repeatedly states that it has "rules and procedures" about all this. So, why aren't there consequences for professionals that FAIL to follow them, especially when children ARE hurt?

 

Speaks for itself......

 

 

 

 

From the Idaho State Journal

 

 

[evmori]

Brent,

Thanks for shedding some light on the incessant rants of a loon!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10