Religious segregation within scouting

[GernBlansten]

The thread about LDS scouts getting killed more often mutated into a discussion on religious segregation of scouting units. I thought this should be a topic on its own merit. FScouter properly documented a CO's right to define leadership within the unit and how it delivers the BSA program. LDS units do this to the letter. My CO on the other hand are at the opposite spectrum of this, approving any leader regardless of their faith as long as they meet BSA requirements. Where does your unit fall into this spectrum? Are there Jewish only units? Baptist only? Christian only? I've got to believe that the vast majority of units, save the LDS ones, are just like mine, a melting pot of various religous backgrounds.

[SemperParatus]

Our CO is a Catholic Church. There are no restrictions on membership or adult leadership based on one's faith.

[scoutldr]

The unit in which I serve, a Troop, is sponsored by a filipino United Methodist Congregation. None of the church youth belong to our troop, and the only function the CO serves is to provide a meeting place. They recently told us they wanted us to move our meetings to another night, because it was too expensive to heat the building just for us on Monday nights. We are considering our options. Our troop membership is mixed Catholic/protestant/unchurched, white, a black Puerto Rican and one vegetarian. No filipino methodists.(This message has been edited by scoutldr)

[Trevorum]

We're sponsored by a wonderful Presbyterian CO. I would guess that about 10-20% of our families are members of that congregation.

 

[scoutingagain]

I was going to post something along the line of what FScouter posted in the other thread, he beat me to it and did a better job.

 

As far as I know the LDS units operate within the scope of the BSA program. The flexibility of the program that allows the LDS units to operate as they do is available to all BSA units. In my area there are Jewish and Muslim Scout troops. I don't know if they specifically exclude members of other faiths, but their activities(i.e. keeping kosher, prayers, etc.) and religious affiliations are such that I think a member not of that specific faith would probably feel uncomfortable. There are plenty of other units available for scouts that do not want to particpate in a Troop with a particular religious affiliation or specific religious practices. The BSA does not discriminate based on religion but the program allows individual COs to do so(well other than athiests).

 

The unit I serve, a Troop is sponsored by a Methodist Church that is considered a "Reconciling Congregation". Church membership is open to "people of every age, race, ethnic or religious background, gender, sexual orientation, mental or physical ability, economic or family status." The differences between the Church's membership policies and the BSA's have never come up as far a I know. Although given the Church's policies I'm certain they would have no problems if the BSA were to change theirs.

 

The Church also doubles as a Jewish Temple on Saturdays. However, none of the adults or youth members of the troop belong to the Church. Most are Catholic, a few others from other Protestant denominations.

 

SA

[GernBlansten]

Now comes the million dollar question....

Do you think religiously segregated troops are good for scouting? I am of the opinion that religious education and scouting are two separate things. Sure, there is some crossover, but the goals are separate. I send my kids to church to learn about God, I send my son to scouts to learn about scouting.

[RickChappell]

Gern,

I wanted to give you a few more details. You read on the LDS website that the Boy Scouting program and the LDS Priesthood program works together, but that doesn't mean they exclude either non-LDS Scouts or Scouters. They do insist that Scouters meet the same moral/ethical standards that LDS Scouters must meet. For example, a man who is living with someone out of wedlock would probably not be able to serve in a position. The same would apply if he were LDS (please don't spin this off to a discussion of values of marriage - it's an example).

 

Keep in mind, though, that the desire is to have a faithful LDS man serve as Scoutmaster, Coach, Advisor, etc. If you think about this, it should make sense. The desire is for that person to serve as an example of what the young men should strive to be.

Likewise, I would expect a Catholic unit to want a strong Catholic to serve as a Scoutmaster, a strong Jewish man for a Jewish troop, etc.

It's really no different that any other Scout troop. As fgoodwin mentioned in the pre-spun post, the CO must approve all leader applications to ensure that the individuals meet the organizations standards. Some organizations are going to value different values (sorry for the redundancy) and it should be represented by their choice of leader.

Scoutingagain nailed the concept. The point isn't to exclude others, but many times others may not feel as comfortable in a unit where there is a group of boys that have some common things they don't share.

For example, as an LDS Scoutmaster and Priesthood advisor, we also had out complementary "Duty to God" religious recognition program. We would program our activities to accomplish both recognitions (like making sure we did the Geneaology merit badge at least every two years). The non-LDS bys in my troop (I had more non-LDS than LDS at that time) didn't mind this, but I could see how it might "rub some people the same way."

Likewise, on the original thread, you asked "why they would require/demand/request exclusive use of the camp if the program is the same." It is not that the program is different, but when you have as large a number of units and boys, it provides an avenue to add things like large LDS religious meetings or other activities that are religious-related. My old council, the National Capital Area Council did this at Goshen. They had a Maryland LDS week and a Virginia LDS week. It's not that they don't want anyone else there, but they can have leaders higher up in the Church organization meet with them without having to schedule meetings at 10 weeks of camp.

 

 

[RickChappell]

Gern,

To address your "million dollar question" post.

>Do you think religiously segregated troops are good for scouting?

Maybe it's semantics, but I'm not sure that segregation is negative in the sense you're making it. Look back at the desegregation movement. After awhile, the courts abandoned it because it was sending kids way out of their neighborhood do they could attend a school with kids of other color. The real issue was that the poor schools (typically black in this case) weren't as good as the richer schools (typically white in this case), not that the kids need to be mixed just because. The courts finally wised up and realized that segregation that matched the neighborhoods wasn't a bad thing in itself.

Scouting is similar. LDS units do not (should not) exclude non-LDS Scouts and Scouters, but they will operate to meet the CO's (LDS Church) needs - which may not be to the liking of some. I have been chastised for offering a prayer at Roundtable where I closed in the name of Jesus Christ. Sorry, but anything else, to me, is not prayer and not doing my duty to God. Likewise, at a recent meeting, someone offered a very generic prayer that I would consider just a nice saying. I would suggest that either is fine, so long as the person is doing their duty to God as they see fit. Our responsibility is to not be so easily offended when someone practices their religion. I know people who would be offended if a prayer was made to Allah. I disagree with that. My understanding of Scouting is that there is room for all that complies with the Oath and Law.

 

>I am of the opinion that religious education and scouting are two separate things. Sure, there is some crossover, but the goals are separate. I send my kids to church to learn about God, I send my son to scouts to learn about scouting.

 

You are perfectly rwelcome to be of that opinion. Some of us feel that we can't compartment our lives that way. As an LDS Scouter, I don't feel that the goals are separate. The LDS Church adopted Scouting as its program precisely because they believed that Scouting's goals and values were the same as ours.

 

Isn't there room in Scouting for both of us?

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

Some folks forget that the BSA partnership with the chartering organization is exactly that - a partnership. That is to say, the BSA has as much a responsibility to help the CO promote its values, as the CO has to promote the values and goals of the BSA. That said - I see no conflict. If you prefer a CO that has no values to promote, fine - then find one, but don't complain when they take no interest in your activities.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[GernBlansten]

Rick, please don't construe my use of the term segregation with any malice. Its a term that perfectly defines my quandary. I could have used the term niggardly in the other thread about council finances but I doubt many would have appreciated its meaning. Perhaps segregation has too much baggage with it. Perhaps someone can suggest an alternative.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think that it is great that the LDS uses scouting for its youth program. But I think scouting is a great opportunity for our young men to appreciate and respect people from all races, colors and creeds. I think segregating your troop by your faith confounds that goal. Our nation is too divided right now, why further divide scouting?

[Rooster7]

GernBlansten

 

But I think scouting is a great opportunity for our young men to appreciate and respect people from all races, colors and creeds. I think segregating your troop by your faith confounds that goal.

 

The implication of your post is this. The BSA should promote diversity above all else, and not allow churches to use the program to promote their faith and values. I dont see diversity as being paramount to all other values. Also, I think coupling this argument with race and color is a red herring. To my knowledge, no troop is segregated based on race. Even if true, they must be in an extreme minority and should not be associated with churches that wish to use the program as a vehicle to reach their youth.

 

[Trevorum]

Hey there Rooster! Where have you been lately? You've missed out on some juicy threads!

 

Here, I agree with you. With the sole exception that I believe that most units are in fact racially segregated. Not out of bigotry (as was perhaps the case in decades long past) but from simple demographic reality. I further believe that nearly all such de facto racially segregated units would welcome any recruit of any race (or religion, for that matter)

[strongshaman]

I think it's great that the LDS uses Scouting as their youth program.

From what I've heard, Scouting and LDS have a 'special' symbiotic relationship that allows LDS churches in small rural towns, like mine, to waive minimum membership numbers so they can still use the Scouting program as their youth program. I don't know if this is a local council policy, or if it is sanctioned by National, but the same waiver should be available to other religious COs that use Scouting for their youth program.

On the other hand, I don't think a religious CO should segregate Scout membership according to the members specific faith.

I've had a few 'heated' discussions with other adult leaders in re: to Scoutings policies on religion. Specifically...can a 'non-Christian' faith such as Pagan/New Age/Wiccan be allowed? I say 'Yes', since Scouting requires a "Duty to God", but does not say what "God", whether it's Christ, Allah, Budda, or 'Ralph the God of Lettuce'. But that may be a whole other new thread.

[OldGreyEagle]

I took Powderhorn training with a Wiccan scouter, he was quite devote in his beliefs

[SemperParatus]

I would have absolutely no problem if a CO chooses to limit unit membership to the faith that it promotes. That is their right as CO. Personally, I don't think its the best way to go about scouting, but that is just my opinion. Those with a similar opinion would simply find a more open troop, or start a new one where another is not available in the area. In most instances, I would expect that an open troop would be much more successful because of its diversity and ability to attract more boys. A thread a couple months ago highlights the problem of a CO changing its unit membership requirements in mid-stream. A phased in approach would be acceptable to me with grandfathering of any existing scouts of different faiths. This may take 7 years or so, but it would help to ensure that each scout's experience is not adversely affected.