evmori Posted January 18, 2006 Share Posted January 18, 2006 Afternoon (where I am) Prairie! At some point, it does become a matter of the legitimacy of the source of the information. That's my point! Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funscout Posted January 25, 2006 Share Posted January 25, 2006 Perhaps it's time that we all step back and simply pray about this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobanon Posted February 26, 2006 Share Posted February 26, 2006 Bible stories have been in Boys Life for as long as I have had access to Boy's Life, and that is since the mid 1960's. Should they be there? Personally I think not, unless there are stories from the Koran, BagadVita, and the other books that make claims of divine origin. When I thumb through a Boy's Life, I pass by the bible page like I do an advertisement for something I have absolutely no use for. Does it bother me, not really, but I can see how someone could be offended. Do Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, boys, or boys of non-xtian religions feel maligned? Who knows, but we should care. The BSA program is absolutely the best youth organization around. There is not even a close second that teaches lifeskills that boys can carry into adulthood. Personally I would like to see the BSA completely drop religion and become wholly secular. Religious belief should be a private matter. I see the "great commission" as one of the great injustices unleashed upon humankind. The stories of the bible have no more merit today than do tales from Roman or Greek mythology. This is the 21st Century and we should not be mired with ideaology from the bronze age. The Great Enlightenment should have taken care of this problem but didn't. And today we are witness to the rise of the religious right. History will see the current Bush administration as their high water mark, and we will see the beginings of their demise come the Nov. 06 election cycle. This rise of the conservative xtians is nothing more than a revitilization movement. As I stated above, the BSA would be better off being wholly secular. The purpose of the BSA is to prepare boys for adulthood. It should not be in the god business. Carl Sagan once wrote, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie Den Leader Posted February 28, 2006 Share Posted February 28, 2006 QUOTE: Personally I would like to see the BSA completely drop religion and become wholly secular. If you take this position, be prepared to get rid of all references to Native American religions that speak of the Great Spirit or spirits. This would not bother me at all because Indian Lore and Indian religions are not fundamental purposes of Scouting. I can hear groans from OA members right now. Im not being disrespectful, just being consistent. The amount of religiosity allowed in the Boy Scouts is determined by each Troop and its chartering organization. Many Troops are basically secular with an occasional reference to God, while others have chaplains and leaders who are active in their churches. This is the way it should be. Let each Troop practice or not practice religion as they see fit. That being said, character development cannot exist in a secular vacuum, but is influenced directly by a belief in something greater than ourselves. For me, this is Jesus Christ. He is my Master and the Scout Law is a reinforcement of what the Bible already teaches. I personally cannot be a good leader and positive role model for my boys if I disregard the leadership of my Master. I see each boy as a wonderful creation of God with great potential to be of service to God, mankind, and his country. I enjoy the Boy Scouts and I take the good with the not-so-good. Its not perfect, but its a great character-building program and boys from all religions should be invited to join. The BSA policy concerning a belief in God should stay in place and let each boy practice his religion freely without persecution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Scouter Posted March 1, 2006 Share Posted March 1, 2006 Hi Newbie, I agree with much of what you say. However, I think that the heart of the matter isn't just having a belief in God as a prerequisite for membership. The text that goes along with that implies that you can't be as good a person, or citizen, if you don't have a belief in God. That, now, is just an opinion that can't be substantiated. I think it'd be better if we judged a person based on their actions (in a Scouting environment) and not just what they believed in from a religious standpoint. If the conservative Christian views continue to hold sway in Scouting, how far away are we from saying that not only are Athiests not good role models, but neither are, say, Buddhists or any other religion that is not Christ-based? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newbie Den Leader Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 QUOTE: "The text that goes along with that implies that you can't be as good a person, or citizen, if you don't have a belief in God..." Indeed, there are many atheist that we could call "good" people. The problem is that atheists do not have an unchanging moral standard to live by to determine what is "good" and what is "bad". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanKroh Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 Newbie Den Leader says: "The problem is that atheists do not have an unchanging moral standard to live by to determine what is "good" and what is "bad"." They don't? I think that would depend highly on the atheist. I know atheists who have moral standards that are set in concrete. On the other hand, I know plenty of people who subscribe to religion (i.e. non-atheists) whose moral standard changes with the wind. And history shows plenty of evidence that the "moral standard" of organized religions have and do change. Sometimes these changes actually spin off a new religion, sometimes they don't. Also, I'm not sure why having an "unchanging moral standard" would make a person "better" in any way. Please correct me if that was not your implication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 3, 2006 Author Share Posted March 3, 2006 I have to agree with DanKroh on this one. Moral standards are more determined, it seems to me, by your upbringing (parents) than by a religious standard. Their standards may be religious based or not. Certainly there is no reason that atheists cannot have an unchanging moral standard. There are some principles that can be determined from studying philosophy, history and (perhaps) comparative religions that work in society. Atheists only differ in that they don't believe there is a judgment awaiting at the end of life. Christians, on the other hand, believe that if they sin they will be forgiven. The behavioral result can be the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venividi Posted March 3, 2006 Share Posted March 3, 2006 I used to have some interesting discussions about an unchanging moral standard with a pastor friend. He posited that christians had one, but he could not state what it was, though it existed but was obscured by man's imperfect interpretation. I would ask what the difference was between not having an unchanging moral standard, vs. having an unchanging moral standard which no one knew, nor could be stated, or couldn't be agreed upon by those saying it existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GernBlansten Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Unchanging Moral standards are more based on ones individual degree of a conscience than any religious training. From Wikipedia... Conscience is a moral faculty that leads to feelings of remorse when we do things that go against our inbuilt moral precepts. Such feelings are not intellectually arrived at, though they may cause us to 'examine our conscience' and review those moral precepts, or perhaps resolve to avoid repeating the behaviour. While many people's conscience is driven by their religiosity or conversely their conscience drives their religion, religion is not necessary for the development of a conscience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunsetandshadow Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 I read this entire thread and was truely shocked by some posters comments. I cannot believe that there are so many "christians" who talk about the bible being stories and tales from the stone age. So many have discussed "being offended" by the Bible Heros section of the magazine when what has really offended me was the comment that "the seven days of creation were not literal 24hr days any logical and educated person understands that". Since I have a B of S degree in mathmatics and statistics I would consider myself very logicial and well educated. I also know that the bible is fact and that the world was created in 7 literal 24 hour days. I know that Job existed as well as all the other historical figures contained in the bible. I teach my children that the bible is fact and that those who do not believe it are misinformed. If the bsa were to become "secular" as some have suggested then we would quit. I find no problems with boy's life containing bible hero stories because we as Christians accept the stories as truth. Others who are not Christians can learn from the stories in the same way that our children learn from the tales of the greek gods taught in school. The BSA oath says duty to God so if a religion does not believe in God, one God then how can they meet that requirement? It does not say duty to all my Gods? And finally why was someone offended by a publication that contained religious stories when it is put out by an organization that has distinct religious ties. The BSA taking a stand for God is one of the reasons we are still in BSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venividi Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 Sunsetandshadow, Welcome to the forum. Am glad to hear you post your views. I do hope that you are not truely shocked that there is a wide variety of viewpoints held (and shared) by the forum members here. I like to understand other peoples viewpoints, even when they disagree with my own, because it does foster self-evaluation of ones own opinion. Sometimes posts result in modification my own viewpoints; often they do not. They do always help me to understand that others do not see things as I do, and that I must accept that. You know that the world was created in a literal 7X24 hour period. Others know that it was not. That is OK here, and also in the BSA. And when different people "know" things that are mutually exclusive, that is the best time to talk and to try to expalain ones own views and to try to understand where those with other viewpoints are coming from. And to respect those positions even when we don't agree with each other. Many of the points made have been around how the bible stories are from a christian/jewish perspective. And that muslim/budhist/shinto/wiccan/etc. stories are never included. That is a valid viewppoint, given that BSA's position is that they do not require or promote one religion over any other. I would gather that you would agree, given your statement that non-christians can learn from the bible stories in the same way that christians can learn from stories of the greek Gods. Were Boys Life to rotate stories monthly, with selections from the bible, koran, greek gods, shinto, budhism, etc., it would go a long way to reflect BSA's position that it is not a christian organization. And as you say, everyone could learn from stories from each religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted March 4, 2006 Share Posted March 4, 2006 sunsetandshadow, Welcome. And there are those who accept the Theory of Evolution as fact and think we Christians are crazy! I agree with you 100%. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GernBlansten Posted March 5, 2006 Share Posted March 5, 2006 Ed, many, many, many Christians accept Evolution including all Catholics, if they follow the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted March 5, 2006 Author Share Posted March 5, 2006 Sunsetandshadow, welcome to the forum and the discussion. I don't know why you would be shocked by any of these comments or why you would assume that we must all be Christians to be Scouters. I don't take offense, but you must realize there are many religions, all of which are acceptable to the BSA, with very divergent beliefs on many topics. Evolution would be one of those, but there are many others. I would suggest it also possible to be a Christian without believing in the biblical version of creation. Certainly there are many Christians who do believe in evolution. To get back to unchanging moral standards, I was at a seminar this weekend which presented the philosophy of Shambala, which is a subset of Tibetan Buddhism, but not necessarily religious. That is, you don't have to believe in Buddhism, or even a divine being, to follow its path. Shambala is founded on the principle that there is a way to live that works and makes life more enjoyable that is not founded on anything divine. There are thousands of people who have followed this path since pre-history. This nonreligious philosophy teaches that there is an ethical way to live in dealing with others and with yourself. Those standards are as impermeable as granite, seem to work very well in society and yet do not depend on the dictates of a divine source. Just food for thought about unchanging moral standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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