"Straight." Does the institution need to change?

[OldGreyEagle]

Long Haul, when I figure out what you asked, I'll have a response

[LongHaul]

OGE,

My question was in the last sentence. What policies do we put in place to address the inclusion of gays and girls. The girls part is already addressed in the Venturing and Explorer programs but what about the gay scouts. Your suggestion that we ignor the fact that they are gay doesn't work as I tried to point out. The gay leaders we now have are leaders becasue they kept their preferences to themselves. It's an issue now because gays have decided they need to be openly accepted as gays. Ok assuming BSA changes it's policy and admits them how do we as leaders address the issue of gays on camp outs? We can't ignor them any more than we can ignor girls. We need rules what are they going to be?

LongHaul

[OldGreyEagle]

Your explanation helps, but I still have difficulty formulating an answer because I think you base your question on a false assumption. I think that false assumption is as soon as Boy Scouts allows gay leaders, then all the boys immediately delare themselves heterosexual or homosexual and the dance of how to keep them separate begins and I dont see it that way.

 

When I say there is no room in Boy Scouts for sexuality I mean its not a subject that is open for discussion. If a scout comes to be because he has a question about sex, I refer him to his parents, church leader or school counselor. I don't care how trivial the question. Because youth read these pages I am not going to give examples but that last thing Boy Scouts needs is a boy going around saying I asked Mr GreyEagle about xxx and he told me all about it.

 

 

 

[LongHaul]

OGE,

Then why all the court cases about gays in scouting. Why don't they just shut up and join up? They want their preferences to be openly known. If preferences were to be kept personal we would't be having this discussion. It's the "I need public validation" section that got us here. On the adult app thee is a place for gender, why? If we are all one what difference does it make? If BSA changes it's policy and accepts gays shouldn't those parents who would prefere that their son not be tented with a gay scout be entitled to some consideration? My question remains that if we feel the need to seperate male and female because of sexual attraction how can we ignor gay sexual preference in youth? We would almost have to ask just as we ask about gender.

LongHaul

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, as I understand it, we are here because of the James Dale case. He was an Assistant Scoutmaster and as I understand if not highly regarded, he was at least not thought of as a liability. While attending Rutgers, he became active in the campus gay and lesbian alliance. When a newspaper printed an interview with him it was seen by someone in his council and then he received a letter saying his membership was revoked. He asked why and was told because being gay was not in keeping with scouting values. The case went to the US Supreme Court and it was correctly decided that as a private organization we get to establish our own membership rules.

 

Now, about the other court cases, those cases seem to be about the BSA and use of facilities, not a person wanting to be a member of the BSA. IN the San Diego case regarding Balboa park its the use of the facilities that are the issue, I dont know of anyone in San Diego who is gay or atheist who is suing to be a member of the BSA. Maybe Merlyn could help me here.

 

And I thought I answered the next part again, but here goes. I dont think we separate males and females because of sexual attraction, I posted somewhere that we separate because of cultural tradition. I know when traveling and feel the need and find a service station that has unisex facilties, I feel slightly emabarrassed that separate facilities are not available though I have no idea why other than societal convention. I have also posted that in the troop I serve tent mates are not assigned by adults, the youth figure it out on their own. Why can't that continue?

 

I guess when it becomes the norm to have restrooms labeled Straight Males, Gay Males, Straight Females, and Gay Females then we may have to worry about it.

 

[Kahuna]

I still think we're worrying about things that may or may not ever become issues. A couple of thoughts pass thru my mind.

 

Of course, you have to honor a request from parents that their son not tent with a gay Scout. As a practical matter, in troops I've associated with, the boys work out their own sleeping arrangements and it probably won't be much of a problem.

 

Presumably, since COs can make policy decisions about things like mixed gender leaders or youth members in Venturing, they can also exclude gay kids if they want to do so.

 

I also think you will not have many gays that will "out" themselves, so most of them will be, as they are now, unknown. If you think you don't have, or will have, gay kids in your troop today, you are deluding yourself. In most cases, they don't cause problems now and probably won't in the future.

 

It also strikes me that this issue will turn out differently than we think. There were dire predictions about bringing women in as leaders and girls in as youth members, most of which have proved wrong.

[BrentAllen]

I also remember some predictions about how the citizens wouldn't vote to support state constitutional bans against gay marriage. How wrong those were.

Luckily, I don't think we have anything to worry about. The BSA would be committing virtual suicide to change the policy. The only real question would be would all those who left form another type of Scouting group, and would those councils take all the assets with them?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

LongHaul writes:

The girls part is already addressed in the Venturing and Explorer programs but what about the gay scouts.

 

That's presumably already addressed in the Explorer program, since it's been open to gays since 1998. Don't know if they do much camping though.

 

You could also ask how members of other countries that admit gays handle the situation, for example in uk.rec.scouting.

 

OGE writes:

Now, about the other court cases, those cases seem to be about the BSA and use of facilities, not a person wanting to be a member of the BSA. IN the San Diego case regarding Balboa park its the use of the facilities that are the issue, I dont know of anyone in San Diego who is gay or atheist who is suing to be a member of the BSA. Maybe Merlyn could help me here.

 

The issues aren't over "use of facilities"; the BSA ought to get the same access as any other discriminatory religious organization. The San Diego case is about whether the city can award a lease to the BSA (without any competitive bidding) for public parkland well below market rates. So far, the answer has been 'no'. As far as I know, there are no lawsuits from gays or atheists suing to be members; all the lawsuits are due to the BSA's relatively new status as a private, discriminatory religious club.

[fgoodwin]

Kahuna, perhaps the reason gays in Scouts haven't caused any problems is because they know they'll be booted out if their homosexuality becomes known.

 

If BSA should ever change its policy to admit avowed gays, there would be no reason to hide their homosexuality.

 

And once gays can openly tent and shower with straights, then we should also remove the ban on males and females tenting and showering together.

[Kahuna]

Aloha fgoodwin,

 

The reason gay Scouts haven't been causing problems is because they would be kicked out the unit for sexual behavior which isn't allowed. Of course, there is sexual behavior among Scouts, most of whom are not gay, but they keep it quiet for the same reason. I also think that, until being gay is completely acceptable among boys or girls of this age, they would just as soon it not be known. Which is why I don't think you would see a lot of open gays in Scouting, even if it was allowed.

 

>>And once gays can openly tent and shower with straights, then we should also remove the ban on males and females tenting and showering together