"Straight." Does the institution need to change?

[ohadam]

Nope, fgoodwin, I can't. This is me shooting from the hip and putting up my dollar. I don't even know which traits are genetically determined (beyond the obvious--eye color, etc.), which traits are only hormonal, and which are genetic but depend on triggers.

 

I am continually dismayed by my widespread ignorance.

 

Sorry to hear about your son, Trev. My son was diagnosed in December 2003 (on the same day he completed a Polar Bear swim with his Wolf den). My source for the virus-trigger hypothesis is my son's physician's speculation + a genetic predisposition for diabetes in my wife's extended family (1 of 8 have it, compared to the 1 of 20 average nationwide) + the fact that sympoms appeared after my son was ill + the scientific speculation that diabetes is an autoimmune disorder. See the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation's statement at http://www.jdrf.org/index.cfm?page_id=101982:

 

"Scientists do not yet know exactly what causes type 1 diabetes, but they believe that autoimmune, genetic, and environmental factors are involved."

 

I have not reviewed or tabulated the research. Yet.

 

Make sure you look into diabetes Summer camp--I highly recommend it.

[fgoodwin]

Dan, thanx for those examples.

[BrentAllen]

How does suppressing homosexuality benefit society?

1. Society suppresses behaviour the citizens find repulsive, such as spitting in public, picking your nose in public, etc... I would wager a large majority of the population finds homosexual behavior repulsive. BTW, I was not taught that homosexual behavior was repulsive - it must be in my genes that I feel that way.

2. Monogamous heterosexual couples are the bedrock of a stable society (financially, emotionally, raising a family). Suppressing homosexual behavior promotes heterosexual behavior, i.e. gay men who are married and have families.

3. Sexual diseases, including AIDS, are spread much more quickly and widely by those who are not monogamous, both hetero and homosexual. My assumption is that one of the reasons AIDS spread through the homosexual community so quickly was because they did not practice safe sex as much as hetero couples, since pregnancy was not a concern.

4. Society, with the exception of the MTV crowd, generally views sexually promiscuous behaviour (hetero or homo) negatively. Whether religious upbringing or not, we are taught that girls who sleep around are sluts, etc... Right or wrong, we see gay bars as evidence of widespread promiscuous behavior in the homosexual crowd.

5. Similar to #4, society does not care for public displays of freakish behavior. Anyone who has been to a Gay Day parade has seen plenty of this.

6. No telling how many deaths have been caused due to people coming out of the closet; how many hospital visits from gays getting beaten up. In addition, how many discrimination cases have filled our court houses. How much money has been spent on litigation. How this issue has divided the country, and families. I'm not pointing a finger at either side or placing blame - I'm simply listing the costs to society, in lives and dollars, of not suppressing homosexual behavior.

[CalicoPenn]

Sorry - this was just too good to pass up so responses:

 

1) Society supresses behavior the citizens find repulsive: Response: Most citizens find cigarette smoking repulsive but you can still smoke (you may not be able to smoke in a restaurant - and frankly, any restaurant that doesn't voluntarily ban smoking never gets my business - the heck with the health issues - smoking effects the taste of food - but no one is stopping you from smoking on sidewalks, in your house, or even on a trail through a national park)

 

2. Monogamous heterosexual couples are the bedrock of a stable society: Response: With a divorce rate of 50% the bedrock is crumbling fast. Let gays marry - maybe they can teach the heterosexuals something about long relationships - or maybe they'll just prove their as adept (or not) at relationships as straights.

 

3.Sexual diseases spread among promiscuous couples more than among monogamous couples: Response: I have to agree with this, and appreciate that it was said in non-judgmental manner - yes, AIDS spread because gay men did not have to worry about birth control, and the known STD's were easy to cure - after the spread of HIV was understood, the gay community began intensive educational efforts and infection rates started declining rather dramatically (while curiously increasing in the heterosexual community who felt they were immune from the disease because it was a "gay" disease).

 

4. Society, with the exception of the MTV crowd, views sexually promiscuous behavior negatively: Response: Only on Sunday's at church - outside of church statistics on affairs, divorce, serial dating don't bear this out - and why single out gay bars? Most bars full of young people, gay or straight, share the same reputation.

 

5. Society does not care for public displays of freakish behavior: Response: Since when?? It was public displays of freakish behavior that made rich men out of Ringling, Barnum and Bailey. For the past few years, public displays of freakish behavior have been the biggest ratings winners and moneymakers on national television - Fear Factor, Big Brother, Survivor, Who Wants to Marry a Millionaire - all (and their ilk) the penultimate of public displays of freakish behavior - and all the most popular form of TV entertainment over the past few years. As for gay pride parades - Chicago's Gay Pride Parade (June) changes places with the Bud Billiken Parade (September) as the most attended parade in the city from year to year - in 2005, the gay pride parade may have even retained their lead over the Billiken parade - its estimated that well over 300,000 people attended this parade - if your suggestion is that a Gay Pride Parade is a public display of freakish behavior, then the numbers watching the parade argue against the contention that society does not like looking at freakish behavior (on a personal note, I can't help but think that the most freakish behavior I've ever seen in any parades are any of the following: Men wearing fezes riding go-karts, men wearing fezes riding mini-bikes, men in bermuda shorts riding lawn mowers, men wearing black socks with sandals in a lawn mower drill team, women wearing mumuus in a shopping cart drill team).

 

6. No telling how many deaths have been caused by people coming out of the closet, litigation, etc.: Response: Well maybe if there were less idiots out there who believe that they have some kind of moral right to kill/harm/discriminate against gays and lesbians, there wouldn't be as many deaths, etc. I suppose you blamed Matthew Shepard for his death, instead of the two morons (including an Eagle Scout (and since everyone claims "Once and Eagle, Always and Eagle, I will NOT call this murdering scum bucket an "Ex-Eagle") who beat him up and left him to die. When "society" finally stands up and says enough is enough to discrimination of any kind, when "society" stands up and no longer blames the victims for crimes committed against them, then, and only then, will I be willing to even consider listening to what "society" tells me I have to do. Until then, I'll continue to live with my own personal sense of morality, which so far in my experience is far greater than any organized religion's based viewpoint of morality.

 

CalicoPenn

[TheFourGuardians]

From BrentAllen: How does suppressing homosexuality benefit society?

1. Society suppresses behaviour the citizens find repulsive, such as spitting in public, picking your nose in public, etc... I would wager a large majority of the population finds homosexual behavior repulsive. BTW, I was not taught that homosexual behavior was repulsive - it must be in my genes that I feel that way.

 

First, I don't know of any laws against those things. More importantly, you can do all of those things in private.

 

 

 

 

2. Monogamous heterosexual couples are the bedrock of a stable society (financially, emotionally, raising a family). Suppressing homosexual behavior promotes heterosexual behavior, i.e. gay men who are married and have families.

 

Actually, I'd say that leads to even more divorce and heartache. Look no further than NJ's former governor for evidence of that. It's a silly proposition, and if it is genetic, will only lead to more of the same.

 

 

3. Sexual diseases, including AIDS, are spread much more quickly and widely by those who are not monogamous, both hetero and homosexual. My assumption is that one of the reasons AIDS spread through the homosexual community so quickly was because they did not practice safe sex as much as hetero couples, since pregnancy was not a concern.

 

That's no longer as large a concern, and considering the lack of control by many heterosexuals, it seems worthless now. STD's have led to safer sex for both groups.

 

4. Society, with the exception of the MTV crowd, generally views sexually promiscuous behaviour (hetero or homo) negatively. Whether religious upbringing or not, we are taught that girls who sleep around are sluts, etc... Right or wrong, we see gay bars as evidence of widespread

promiscuous behavior in the homosexual crowd.

 

But the same is true of nearly any bar. How many college students are now virgins. Better yet- how many high school students. It would be nice to have less of this, but that starts at home and not in any other way.

 

5. Similar to #4, society does not care for public displays of freakish behavior. Anyone who has been to a Gay Day parade has seen plenty of this.

 

I've also seen far more horrible behaviours at sporting events, schools, and any protesting organization.

 

6. No telling how many deaths have been caused due to people coming out of the closet; how many hospital visits from gays getting beaten up. In addition, how many discrimination cases have filled our court houses. How much money has been spent on litigation. How this issue has divided the country, and families. I'm not pointing a finger at either side or placing blame - I'm simply listing the costs to society, in lives and dollars, of not suppressing homosexual behavior.

 

 

 

Eh...I can easily make the arguement that such repression is leading to the hatred and the entire "comming out of the closet" situation.

 

The arguement is similar to saying how many people were being harmed durring the civil rights movement. I personally don't equate gay rights to that, as there is so little legislation against them it's fairly silly to even compare it to the plights of minorities in the sixties, fifties, and before.

 

It might cost a bit(far less than any of those things previous) but that's all voluntarily paid by both sides. If a man kills another, he has volunteered himself for the restitution and of course jail. If a man goes to jail for speaking his mind, he has found it worth the risk, etc.

[DanKroh]

Well, Brent, I'm not going to respond to each item individually, because I think the responses of others before me have shown that they can all be covered by a blanket statement:

 

All of your "benefits" really show a great deal of ignorance about the lifestyle led by the average homosexual, the actual lifestyle of the average heterosexual, the behavior of "fringe" elements in any group, and the hateful things that many people will do in the name of "morality".

 

So really, you have two choices. You can continue in willful ignorance, which I find is generally at the root of most homophobia, since it is easier to demonize a group that you don't really know anything about, or you can educate yourself about what the average homosexual is really like, instead of the caricature you have presented.

[BrentAllen]

I believe I know enough about homosexuality. I had a good friend, who was gay, who died of AIDS back in 1986. He also dated women occasionally. If he had suppressed those desires, he would probably be alive today.

I have a cousin who is openly gay. I work with people who are openly gay. I do not fear them, I do not hate them. As a Christian, I am taught to love the sinner, and hate the sin.

I believe what you meant to say was I can continue to hold to my Christian and moral beliefs and be labeled a homophobe by you and others, or I can compromise my religious and moral beliefs to be politically correct. Sorry, but I will choose my religious and moral beliefs.

[DanKroh]

Actually, Brent, I never said you had to accept homosexuality as a "valid" lifestyle, only that you really should learn more about what the lifestyle of the average homosexual really is.

 

You have presented homosexuals as bar-hopping, bed-hopping, promiscuous, anti-family, with freakish behaviors and (in another thread) implied tendencies toward pedophilia and child-molestation. Oh yeah, and they invite people to bash them and like to engage in frivilous litigation.

 

Those must be some very strange gay relatives and colleagues you have if you think the above description represents the "average" homosexual.

 

The "average" homosexual is as monogamous, Church-going, family-oriented, moral, ethical, civic-minded, and responsible as the average heterosexual. Actually, that statement may be a slight to the average homosexual.

 

It is one thing to be ignorant because you don't know any better. But when the response to the suggestion that a view may not be representative of reality is, "Well, too bad, it's my view, and I'm sticking with it," well, I guess that is the sign of a truly closed mind.

[GernBlansten]

I'm starting to side with Brent. Repulsive behaviour must be suppresed for the betterment of society. Take fat people for example. Nothing is more repulsive than to go to the buffet line and see some obese kid loading up at the dessert counter. Sure, some would say he's just big boned or has a "fat" gene. But we all know its about lifestyle. He chooses to be fat and he makes me sick. If only he would have better eating habits, my enjoyment of the buffet would be enhanced. But no. He keeps piling on the dessert toppings, extra everything then plops down across the room from me and mashes the fat laden calories into his big fat disgusting face. Thank goodness BSA has a law that a scout must be fit. Otherwise, I might just have to sit across the campfire from him and watch his disgusting comsumption of Smores. And its just not me either. I know of three other people who find that gross. Sure I have a friend who is obese and he's very nice, but I don't support his lifestyle. He has made poor life decisions. And these people just don't stop with their own behavior, they push it on the rest of us too. They want super sized portions. They run ads on TV our kids watch to eat their putrid junk. They lobby our legistlature to strike down any laws that allow us to protect ourselves from their slovenly behaviour. Band with me brothers! We must fight this assault on our children at every buffet line.

[Trevorum]

(psst! Brent! remember my comment on satire?)

[OldGreyEagle]

Sounds like Gern has a modest proposal for us to consider

[BrentAllen]

Dan,

You are seeing what you want to see in my post, not what I am saying. The promiscuous behavior, spreading of STD's, etc... I attributed to both homo and hetero groups. The freakish behavior - yes, I did single out the homosexual crowd. When in NYC with my wife years ago, we stumbled upon their Gay Day parade. Maybe the one in Chicago is different, but this one was anything but a family-oriented affair. Freakish is the only way to describe it - multiple "Marilyn Monroe" men flashing the crowd, the uniform of the day for many men appeared to be thongs and chaps, the lovely Dikes on Bikes group. This does not describe the homosexuals I know personally here in Atlanta, but this is what was on display for the Gay Day parade in NYC.

I am not bashing gays. I'm explaining why society would want gays to suppress those desires, and choose not to live an alternative lifestyle. Nothing more.

 

Gern,

Welcome to the battle! Don't forget the health hazards and accompanying high medical bills from being obese! Shorter life spans, clogged arteries, a triple by-pass in the future! Your body is your temple! Now, repeat after me "A Happy Meal with water, please!"

[DanKroh]

Well, Brent, then all of your "benefits" to society of supressing homosexual behavior can also be applied to heterosexual behavior.

 

Additionally, I can rattle off an equally ridiculous list of "benefits" to society of supressing heterosexual behavior.

 

That's it. Let's suppress heterosexuality for the benefit of society. Are you going to be the first to seek treatment and conversion?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[DanKroh]

Yes, Gern, I must shamefully come "out of the pantry" as an ex-obese person. Although I prefer the non-judgemental term, "metabolically challenged".

 

But I saw the sinfullness and immorality of my food-promiscous lifestyle, and with the help of a holy bariatric surgeon, bless her for doing god's work, was able to turn my back (or would that be stomach?) to that lifestyle.

 

My family history and genetic susceptibility to obesity did not stop me from repressing my subversive behavior, let it be a testament to others!

 

I am a much happy person now that I have shed that 120 lbs, and can be accepted into mainstream theater, airline, and amusement park seats, not to mention no longer displaying my repulsive behavior in public eating establishments. All praise bariatric surgery!(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[BrentAllen]

Dan,

I have. I got married and settled down, started a family.

Question: Are you going to teach your sons they should remain abstinent until they get married? That sex is something special that should be reserved until they meet the woman they will commit to for the rest of their lives? That they should not have children out of wedlock?

I'm not asking what you think they will do. I'm asking what you are going to teach them is right, what is correct behavior. What values you will instill in your sons.

That is what I am doing - which is suppressing certain heterosexual activity. Would you agree, or disagree? I think the Scout Law certainly suppresses a lot of promiscuous behavior - no? Would that list of behaviors be ridiculous?