"Straight." Does the institution need to change?

[SAGReagan]

The ACLU flexes its political muscle and rallies its supporters and lobbyists on Capitol Hill, once again the BSA will soon be facing a Supreme Court firefight over it's most controversial tradition, the last line of the Scout Oath. Is the institution damaging itself by continuing to fight a continually more high profile political battle or should the BSA Old Guard stick to their guns and hope for more of Washington's "Good Old Boy" support?

[SAGReagan]

With the entire House up for reelection next year, Representitives will rush to pick sides they see as "representitive" of their constituants, watch the NE and NW states.

[SAGReagan]

Major evidence will be provided concerning a recent study in Sweden invovling pheromone reactions in the brains of hetero and homosexual males, undeniably connecting the word biology to the situation. As a result this will come down to a brawl over the age old defining question of this debate, "Is one born hetero or homosexual?" Watch Senator Boxer, she was a major proponent of the research.

[EagleInKY]

I feel a squelch coming on.

[SAGReagan]

A squelch? I don't think you give one of the countries oldest special interest groups enough credit. Scouting needs allies in office, allies that don't need to be repeatedly reelected, ie, supreme court justices. The BSA's measly treasury and support base pales in comparison with the funds that the ACLU or the American Trail Lawyers Association can throw at an issue.

 

I give it 5 years before scouting is accepting openly gay members, 10 before there are gay Scoutmasters.

[CA_Scouter]

BSA has nothing to fear from either the Supreme Court, the ACLU, and anyone else as long as it follows the laws of the United States.

 

Now yall don't slam me too hard, because I speak only from a layman's point of view, but as I understand, its entirely within the law for the BSA to set its own membership rules, whether that excludes atheists, homoesexuals, left-handed persons or people who have had laser correction surgery. BSA is entirely within its rights to do so.

 

It does, however, exclude the BSA from certain relationships with government entities, but that is a restriction that the BSA has accepted.

 

BSA doesn't need allies, it simply needs to follow the existing laws and not seek special treatment. Then the BSA won't have to worry about the ACLU and others.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

CA Scouter is correct. The ACLU has no case against the BSA if BSA is following the rules. Where the BSA may loose is in the court of public opinion if it can be proven that homosexuality is not a choice but biological. The Swedish/pheromone research is pretty strong and I'm sure there will be more coming. If that does happen, BSA will be under public pressure to relax their membership standards or be painted as bigots. I'm sure they will do the right thing.

[SAGReagan]

Scouting is not free from government regulation just because it doesn't recieve a tax break or subsidy. The Supreme Court has forced its self onto countless independent instituations in the past, private industries, private schools, almost every "private" sector of American life.

 

And what exactly is "the right thing?" Is following measures necessary to preserve the institution in come form the right course of action? Or is clinging to an unpopular value to watch the pressure of public harrassment and financial ruin tear you down bit by bit the proper solution?

[theysawyoucomin']

If sagreagan is a patrol leader in a Boy Scout troop I'll eat my WB beads.

 

Take your political rant someplace else, i'ts quite sad that a militant like you has to hide who he is and begin your argument with deceipt.

[fgoodwin]

uz2bnowl, allow me to quote the description of the "Issues & Politics" forum:In answer to many requests, we established a separate forum for these topics. Those not interested can skip this forum instead of spending time reading unwanted messages to identify content.Now, given that description, it would appear the message was properly posted here. As the description suggests, those who are not interested can skip the forum (or the post).

 

Fred Goodwin

[troop729sm]

Okay, I don't usually post in these kinds of discussions but while I am still allowed my free-speech rights.... .... I would rather see the Boy Scouts counted as defunct by society and disbanded then to succumb to the pressures of those who do not agree with the values of the BSA. I mean, why does EVERYTHING absolutley have to be ABSOLUTELY equal to ABSOLUTELY everyone? Why can't some people think this way and other people think that way? I could go on forever on my disgust with doing away with individuality on a global scale but I will keep it brief here.

 

Why, if a homosexual knows that the values of an organization would make them "feel" as an outsider, would they then want to be a part of that? I am not a homosexual and thus I do not take part in Gay Pride parades carrying a banner in support of heterosexuality. If homosexuals think that there are aspects of the BSA that are positive but not wholly inclusive to their agenda, why not then start their own Homosexual Scouts of America? Are they afraid nobody will join or support them? If so, why is that?

 

I am not a homosexual hater nor do I have a phobia for people who live in that lifestyle but at the same time, why is it so terrible for me to want to belong to an organization that is in line with what I believe as long as it is not in violation of the laws of this country? (And let us not go into the subject changing laws to allow homosexuals into the Boy Scouts). I can tell you if anything destroys Scouting it will be that.

 

I know that I would not allow my son to join an organization whose leadership is in the business of leading young boys into their philosophies of sex, love and marriage if I know for a fact that I do not agree with those philosophies.

 

If you disagree with me that is wonderful as it proves that we all still have some individuality left but I would like to be able to still have a place to go where I feel safe, secure and comfortable. If the BSA does not do that for you, start your own group please and help put lawyers out of work.

 

Patrick

[Trevorum]

T729SM, welcome to the forums! We're glad you've joined us -- you've boldly jumped right into the thick of the gay debate on your first post!

 

Reading your arguments, I could hear the echoes of an era long past, when upstanding Scouts and Scouters in this country did not want "coloreds" in scouting, and certainly not in their own troop. "Why don't they start their own organization for 'their kind'. We don't want our sons to join that sort of organization. What is wrong with us wanting our troop to be 'whites only'?"

 

To me, the parallels are stark, and frightening.

 

As a person of conscience, I will continue to speak out against, and fight, injustice. I have absolutely no doubt that one day the BSA will no longer discriminate on the basis of genetic and hormonal characteristics over which we have no control and which have no bearing on character.

 

Either that, or we should also revoke membership to achrondroplastics and those with trisomy 21.

[fgoodwin]

Nick, I usually stay out of these discussions because there is nothing to be gained by wading in. Having said that, it is a pet peeve of mine when people "play the race card" by comparing sexual orientation to race.

 

The fact is, race (whatever that is) is not a decision, it is a trait. If you did a sudy of identical twins, I would wager that for every black male in the study, 100% of the identical twins would also be black. And white twins would be white. Asian twins would be Asian, etc.

 

OTOH, there is no such clear-cut correspondence among identical twins where at least one claims to be homosexual. That is, according to results of studies of identical twins, some 50% or more of identical twins of gay men (or of lesbian women) are not themselves gay (or lesbian).

 

How can one explain that lack of correspondence if "gayness" is innate, hereditary or otherwise genetically-based? Until that correspondence reaches 100%, I find it difficult to accept that "gayness" is hereditary.

 

And until "gayness" is found to be determined at birth and therefore not changeable, I think drawing comparisons between the way BSA (or even society at large) deals with sexual orientation vs. race is premature.

[Trevorum]

Hello Fred! How are ya? I hope you had an excellent Christmas!

 

Whether or not one thinks that gender identity is determined before birth or not does not diminish my argument. My point was that many of the same arguments that were used to justify rascism in scouting (and in society) are being recycled today.

 

Regardless, your point is that science does not yet know for certain what causes sexual orientation to vary. Yes, this is very true. But there is increasing scientific evidence that such orientation is due to a complex interplay of genetic and gestation-hormonal factors. (Remember that some sea turtles become either male OR female depending on something as simple as temperature.) Some researchers think that this issue may be unraveled within 10 years.

 

I know that neither you nor I made a "choice" to be attracted to women. That's just the way we were made. The same is true for gay people. But I don't expect to convince you or anyone else on this point. I'm not a specialist in this field (shoot, I can't even convince some people of the power of evolution!) but. fairly soon, I believe the science will speak clearly. In the meantime I feel I have a moral obligation to speak out against what I see as a social injustice.

[Greying Beaver]

I work with a couple of openly homosexual men. They know of my emvolvelment is scouting and this topic has be the catalyst for a number fo interesting discussions. They are aware of the many benefits of our society afforded by the BSA concerning ethics, moral behavior and citizenship preparation as seen on the wider canvas of our society. The homosexual community's awarenes of the the dichomity between homosexual behavior and lifestyle and heterosexual behavior and lifestyle when examined through the filter of the teachings of the three major religions of the Occident (Judisiam, Christianity, and Islam) is the source of great consternation in the homosexual community. It's there; they keep it to themselves. To admit such would be like throwing gasoline onto a fire. And a fire-storm there would be. In public, however, the behavior of a good citizen is instantly recognized. What that good citizen does in the privacy of his own home . . . is his own business.

 

On the other hand, the homosexual community is aware of the laws protecting children. Regardless of the sexual orientation of the offender, a person accused of child molestation goes through the same judicial process. Child molestation is centered on the offender's potential power over the child regardless of sexual orientation. Too much clinical evidence backs that up. The arguement, "Why have a girl when you can have a woman?" in the heterosexal community (child molestation is the question; power over someone is the issue.) has a parallel arguement in the homosexual community: "Why have a boy when you can have a man?" (Same question; same issue.). The answer from both the heterosexual and homosexual man are the same; the issue for both the heterosexual man and the homosexual man are the same.

 

I digress.

 

When adult homosexuals openly come into the BSA as leaders in contact with the youngsters, look for an explosion in the number of units. Those parents who do not want their sons in units led by homosexuals but want their sons in scouting will find other units or will start their own with the CO being "A group of citizens".

 

Any homosexual who uses a boy scout unit as a "smorgesborge" will be dealt with more quickly by the homosexual community than by the heterxual community. And there won't be much for the hetersexual community to do with either. And the same is true for a hetersexual who molests a scout now.

 

 

When adult homosexuals openly come into the BSA, they will be very closely watched - more than the blacks were - moreso by the homosexual community than the hetersexual community.

 

Regardless of what you preceive my position to be on the question, I will hold those cards very close to the vest. We are to hate the sin but love the sinner. And that is following the commandment of the Great ScoutMaster. The twelveth point of the Scout Law is for me to practice the tenants of my religion and for you to respect my practice.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know; I do pontificate at times.

 

G.B.

 

P.S. The ACLU'ers are more afarid of us than we are of them.