Things in our lives that may conflict with Scouting

[CA_Scouter]

I've been monitoring this thread for the last day or so and I've finally decided to post my response. I think Rooster7 option#2 is what is going on... This is a charade and the poster is trying to tweak the other participants in the forum.

 

I would like to compliment the posters to this thread for their restraint and gentlemanly behavior.

 

My son is now 14 years old and very interested in the opposite sex. I talk to him about his actions and his perceived actions with the young lady, and the point I always make is that a gentleman would never put a lady in a position where her integrity could be questioned. I also remind him that he has a responsiblity to himself and his family to not put HIMSELF into a situation where his integrity could be called into question.

 

Using this imaginative story as an example, it would seem the originator of this thread has put himself squarely in such a position. Though he has not violated any BSA rule, he has given the impression that he is a participant in this culture, and that would cause concern among the parents in the troop.

 

 

 

 

 

[EagleScout316]

Well, gee, nldscout, thanks for trying to accuse me of something that I know I'm not. I'd throw down an invitation for a fight the next time you come to Chicago, but it's situations like this that are a test to my self control. And it proves you to be an idiot who's probably hiding something from himself.

 

Ca_Scouter, I don't know what else to say besides, "On my honor as an Eagle Scout, none of this is a lie". I can't really make you realize that it's for real; it's your prerogative to decide for yourself if the world is nice and pristine or there are actual problems out there. If you're ever in Peoria, look me up some time, and I'll let you try ta live my life for a bit. I'll tell ya now; it's hell. But how do I give the impression that I'm a participant in that culture? Just because I didn't leave the second I found out I was in a gay bar? Sorry that I didn't want to bail out on my friends and walk home at night in a crappy part of town in extremely cold weather. Again, whatever.

 

And DanKroh, real quick here: "You are talking about heterosexual men who engage in violent behavior that happens to be performed on another man. That is not homosexuality, that is rape." To me, it's still an act of homosexual behavior. When someone who is oriented that way behaves that way, it's not like they can help it, but if someone who's not does it because of their environment, does it take away from the fact that it is still a sexual act between two men? Whatever; I'm obviously not majoring in psychology, and I'm actually just getting more confused, so I'll just drop this.

 

For Scoutndad, yeah, I've thought about that, and hopefully, any future employer of mine should not let something like working in a bar (of any kind) during my college years intervene with the type of person I am when it comes to doing my job. As for my intended career, I'm an Administration of Criminal Justice major; probably gonna shoot for either being a State Trooper, or join the Navy and go for SEAL (afterall, it's a family thing).

 

For Torveaux, the 'Perceptions are reality' bit hit my point dead on. Of all things I'm worried about, it is a scandal, as where I may be working is not the best choice morally. Of course, were it a regular bar, sadly, it wouldn't be an issue, because the gay flag doesn't appear. And for scouts, being gay, or even being friends of gay people, somehow in and of itself, becomes an issue. Parents have a right to worry about their kids, and I'm basically saying that I don't wanna take that job if it means me getting kicked out of my Troop, whether from the head office, or from a complaint formed by the parents of the kids in the Troop. As for being a financial slut, I really don't see it as that bad of an option in that term, as everyone always looks for making more money, regardless of who they are (volunteers are obviously excluded). I'd like to live my life completely according to God, however, my apartment, a growing debt to my mother from being at college, and the future prospect of a 'car' all cost more money than I have, and I already work 4 jobs. Well, 2 actual part-time jobs, one as a fitness instructor at my college and one as a self-defense instructor for kids. The other two are donating plasma (not really a job, but I still get paid) and being an Assistant Scoutmaster for my Troop (which is, surprise surprise, a volunteer position). So until God makes money appear like Jesus did with loaves and fish, I have to seek out a job that will be the most benefitting in terms of a monetary outcome.

 

As for Rooster7, it's kind of about John 3:16. I'm a huge professional wrestling fan, and my favorite wrestler growing up was Stone Cold Steve Austin. He coined his phrase of Austin 3:16 (I just whipped your [rear end]) after beating Jake 'The Snake' Roberts, who had gone around for a while toting a Bible and speaking of John 3:16. Eagle Scout 3:16 is a phrase I coined from my first trip to Philmont. If you guys ever get the chance to go there, or have already, think of looking around the top of Mt. Phillips for a memorial dedicated to an Eagle Scout who died of cancer, and had his ashes spread there. You'll find the meaning there.

 

Well, that's all I really feel like talking about this topic for the time being. It's not like there's a position open at this place for the next month or two, and apparently, I'm picking up on some hatefull overtones towards homosexuals and anyone associated with them. All that matters right now is that I have to wake up early to catch a bus out to O'Hare airport, and then get home to my family for the Christmas season. As far as the job is concerned right now, I'm not taking it until I can talk directly with some of my friends at the head office in Texas.

 

Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays,

-D

 

Eagle Scout 3:16(This message has been edited by EagleScout316)

[Lisabob]

Gosh nld, that's amazing. You can "tell one when you see one" from a post on a message board? I must have misunderstood what you meant here.

 

EagleScout316, you certainly seem worried about taking this job, and if it is going to keep you awake at night (when you're not working I mean) then you should look for another job. No job is worth excessive mental, or moral, anguish. On the other hand if you're comfortable with it, then go ahead.

 

As for scouting - if your scout troop back home were to give you a hard time then I suppose you could ask them to help you find an equally well-paying college job that fits right in with their moral views. My guess is that this would not include working in a "straight" bar either though. More likely, most of the adult leaders will understand that you need to make some money to pay for school.

 

And if in fact, this is a joke (yup, I had that thought too) then hey, eaglescout316, you have way too much time on your hands. Go study for your finals or something instead.

 

Lisa'bob

A good old bobwhite too!

[CA_Scouter]

OK, ES316, if I'm wrong then I do apologize. Being an Eagle myself, I'll accept your 'none of this is a lie' statement. But some of your other statements DO concern me.

 

I'm sorry you say your life is 'hell'. IMHO, perhaps hanging out in places where lifestyles which directly contradict the teachings you've been raised with are causing you strife. Perhaps removing yourself from these situations might help.

 

As an example, we had a young man ( a neighbor ) go off to join the Army Rangers, and he was dishonorably discharged after having a type of nervous breakdown. Long story, but it seems they tried to take this young man, who was very religious, and turn him into a sniper. I don't know the psychological terms/effects, but we suspect this caused him such strife as to contribute to his breakdown.

 

I want to clarify that I said you were giving the IMPRESSION of being a participant in that culture, and I'm referring to your statement that you are now a bartender there, not simply because of a single visit to the place.

 

Suggestion: drop the 'hateful' rhetoric. Disagreement does not equate to hate, despite what the politicians tell you.

 

Finally, I sincerely wish you luck.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SemperParatus]

ES316,

 

There is only one way to prove your story to this crowd...how do you make a Shirley Temple?

 

[GernBlansten]

I would turn the job down.

What would you do if you found yourself serving a scouter? Would feel obligated to "out" him to BSA? If you out him, how would that make you feel about yourself?

 

If you didn't out him, how would you feel knowing that that type of man is working with the scouts?

 

I like to sleep at night, so I wouldn't put myself in that hypothetical position.

[SR540Beaver]

ES316,

 

If it were me, I wouldn't take the job. I agree with the comments about perception is reality. Being a Southern Baptist, taking a bartending job regardless of whether or not it is a straight or gay bar would be out of the question for me personally. Since you mentioned a Priest, I assume you are Catholic and of course Catholics have far different views on alcohol than Baptists. Religion aside, is working as a bartender in a gay bar something you want to be known for? Is it a good example to the boys you work with in the troop? Money is obviously a very important thing in life. We have to be able to provide for ourselves. But the need to earn money is not a justification for taking a job that can give you a questionable reputation. There are other jobs out there. Can you rake in as much as quickly as you can by tending bar in a gay club? Probably not. But you also don't have parents wondering why this young single guy who works in a gay bar is working with their son either. I'd suggest finding a job that will teach you something useful in your later life. I'd stay away from this opportunity and keep my reputation and peace of mind intact.

[Trevorum]

I would never work in a place like that.

 

The second-hand cigarette smoke can kill you.

[Rooster7]

EagleScout316,

 

The explanation for your username surprises me a little. If faith in God is important to you, why adopt a username inspired by a man who chose to mock Christianity? Even if you dont like people who proselytize, do you want to join the culture that makes fun of believers? This seems counterintuitive your values, and most in particularly to your faith.

 

[SAGReagan]

Back on topic, Scouting is an extra in your life, a supplement, but your economic situation is NOT. The utility company won't care how glued to your morals you are before they turn off your water. If this "gaybar" is necessary for your financial well-being, well then, necessary is necessary, keep the job, if not and this is having a profoundly 'taxing' effect on your emotions, quit.

[EagleScout316]

First and foremost, a Shirley Temple is a non-alcoholic cocktail made with lemon-lime soda and grenadine, with a bit of cherry and a slice of lemon. Variations include ginger ale, club soda, or orange juice can be substituted for the lemon-lime soda. There are also alcoholic variations, like a Dirty Shirley. In case anyone's wondering why I know how to make this, my grandfather taught me how to make drinks since I was little, so that whenever I came over to visit him, I could make him his favorite drink. Oddly enough, he never let me taste any of the drinks I made. However, when I bartended, most people just asked for bottled beverages. Others asked for their own special drinks that there were no recognized names for. For example, a shot of 75% Apple Puckers and a little bit of 151 to light the shot.

 

Lisabob, thx for letting me know about that much of it in terms of stress. As for Scouts, I figure it'll be alright if I put a percentage of my profits towards my Troop in terms of a trailer or something. I'll be sure to let you guys know how it turns out. And really, what person in the world could possibly have that much time on their hands, excluding telemarketers. Also, finals are over with (thankfully). :lol:

 

CA_Scouter, just to clear some things up, I'm not currently a bartender there; I did it for about 10 minutes, and haven't been back there since. As for the 'hateful' rhetoric, I utilized that from nldscout's bit about 'knowing one when he sees one'. Also thought that kind of strange, considering all he sees is a screen with words on it, where context can easily be misinterpreted, no matter what subject one is talking about.

 

Having to 'out' a fellow Scouter would highly depend on what he was doing in the bar: if he's working there alongside me, or just ordering a drink, or even just hanging out so he can get free shots, I can't really discipline him for such things, as I've already committed those acts. However, if he is obviously displaying certain types of behavior that would sned out a red flag that he's gay, I'd feel obligated to do so. While I might be working in a gay bar (based on this example), I still would not be condoning homosexuality. Also, if it was someone in a position of leadership in scouts that was going to gay bars for the purposes of having relationships with other men, I would be doing a disservice to the kids in his Troop, and I'm pretty sure, be breaking a rule or two by not saying anything.

 

Yes, I'm a Catholic.

 

Yeah, I know all about that second-hand smoke. I wonder if they'd let me wear a gas mask.

 

Rooster7, I really never did make that connection before that Stone Cold was actually making fun of John 3:16. I simply thought of it as him bringing forth his own religious doctrine, saying that he's basically more powerful than any man because of his faith, and no once can beat him because of his faith. We all interpret everything differently, I guess. If anything, it just made conviction to my own faith stronger, as I was watching a guy who I admired winning against the odds almost all the time, a guy who was using slight amount of a biblical reference. For me, Eagle Scout 3:16, Austin 3:16, and John 3:16 are not all related by their religious overtones, but by their connections to faith, and in how they are kept close to the hearts of the people who preach them.

 

Anyway, thanks, everyone for your responses. I appreciate everyone's opinions very much.

 

Your in Scouting,

-D

 

Eagle Scout 3:16

[SR540Beaver]

ES316: "While I might be working in a gay bar (based on this example), I still would not be condoning homosexuality."

 

Boy, this sure takes me back to my Situation Ethics course in Seminary some 25 years ago where we discussed things like whether or not stealing food is wrong if you are hungry. ES316, Is it OK to make money transporting illegal drugs as long as you are not the one selling it to kids on the street corner? Transporting it from one place to another isn't the same thing as condoning its use after all. While you may not condone homosexuality, placing yourself in a business that caters to that crowd sure sends out a message that you do. You are enabling their actions by working in a place where you serve alcohol that will lower their inhibitions and make "hooking up" all the easier. Do you really want to be part of that? You would be, no matter how you rationalize it in your mind. You would be trading your principles in the hopes of making more in tips.

 

Now, before I'm accused of being homophobic....I hold the same view about tending bar in a straight bar (meat market) where guys and gals are looking to hook up for a one nighter too.

 

I just think there are better ways to make a living that will not compromise your morals, principles or reputation.

[Mike F]

Sorry, ES316, but my opinion is to stay clear.

 

I agree with SR540B - if you work there and take their money, it's impossible to be convincing when you say you don't condone. If you really don't condone, stay clear.

 

Similar examples:

There are legal brothels in Nevada. Could one really bartend there and ignore what's going on down the hall?

There are legal abortion clinics all over the county. Would it be OK to support the business working as a receptionist and ignore what's going on down that hall?

 

As a practical matter, you could find yourself in hot water with your troop's charter org. One of the troops I used to serve was sponsored by local Catholic Church. There was a major uproar when they discovered one of our female registered leaders had gone back to working in the "adult entertainment" business. Perfectly legal, but definitely unwholesome and not something they wanted their church to be associated with.

 

In this day, with occasional sad stories of sick abuse within scouting, I encourage you not to provide ammunition which might be used to hurt you, your unit, your charter org, and, indeed, all of us. All it takes is one strange incident or situation in the troop and the spotlight shines first on you. And the press will be listening eagerly for the 10 o'clock sound bite.

 

In your heart, you know there's something not right with this situation. Listen to the voice and stick to the high road. HE will provide. Even if His way means you will take longer to pay off those student loans. At least you'll do it with your head high and a clear conscience.

 

-mike

 

[EagleScout316]

Well, the difference between a brothel and this place is that, if anyone does hook up, they are unable to do so in the bar. They have to go home for anything like that. And who knows; maybe I might reach out to someone with my views. Whether I work there or not, there will still be someone that will end up working there. As one of my friends put it, I'm 'robbing' them and putting money into my wallet. And as SAGReagan put it, my economic situation (which, I just found out, has been put into an even greater risk) supercedes my stance on morality. After all, my priest (of the Church that my Troop belongs to) agrees with that sentiment, and that if I should feel my morals being threatened too much, I should then go ahead and quit. In terms of better ways to make a living, do you know of one in Central Illinois that fits the schedule of a college kid, and provides a commission beyond a fixed wage? If so, just let me know.

 

And in terms of things that God provides, who's to say he didn't put this out on the map for me to do? Perhaps it's a test for me to undergo. Perhaps, by going through with it, some type of good might occur from the overall experience. I'm not really sure what type of good, but I've gotta keep an open mind about the abilities of other human beings besides myself.

 

YIS,

-D

 

Eagle Scout 3:16

[Mike F]

ES316,

 

At great risk of incurring wrath, please consider the possibility that it wasn't God that placed this opportunity before you to help solve a cash flow problem. Perhaps it was Satan working through greed to lure you in.

 

Pray hard, my young friend, and listen to the still small voice. You may hear two of them. Dont listen to the one talking about money because that one is appealing to your natural human greed. Listen to the one talking about right/wrong or good/evil.

It's always better to do the right thing - even when it comes at personal cost.

 

I wont bug you on this again, but I will be praying for you.

 

-m