war on Christmas

[SR540Beaver]

I suggest a Festivus for the rest of us! Look it up.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Festivus

[DanKroh]

Well, thank you SemperParatus, for your sincere interest in learning more.

 

Just to clarify, the belief that I feel was being disrespected was my belief that Jesus was a great teacher, but not necessarily divine. This belief has been called "silly", and that it must result from "ignorance". If those are respecful words, then I'll eat my neckerchief.

 

To clarify my position on "Merry Christmas", I am not bothered by the greeting itself (when given in the appropriate spirit), but rather the assumption that I must be Christian.

 

But you asked me to define my beliefs for you. Sure thing. I am a Unitarian Universalist Pagan with Wiccan leanings. I do not follow Saturn (that would make me a Roman Reconstructionist).

 

Wicca is a pagan religion based on a belief in the sexual duality of the divine, that is, that there is both a God and a Goddess. It is also very nature based, so holidays are based on astronomical and agricultural events such as soltices and equinoxes, and planting/harvest festivals. We also celebrate the phases of the moon, especially the full and new moons.

 

My personal belief about divinity is that all gods are simply human interpretations of the Divine Creator of the universe, a Spirit which is beyond mortal ability to understand, so we create "avatars" to represent different aspects of that Spirit. The particular avatars that I use are Celtic in origin (Herne, Morrigan, Bran, Cerridwen, etc). I accept that others believe in the divine nature of their avatars, they just aren't MY gods/God.

 

My chosen place of worship is the UU Church, where I worship next to Christians, Jews, Hindus, Agnostics, probably some Muslims and Atheists (although I don't personally know any in my church), and other Pagans. We draw inspiration from the Bible, the Koran, the Torah, as well as the philosophical writings of teachers in many other religions, as well as humanists (Thoreau is a fav). We believe in the inherent worth of all human beings and tolerance for all beliefs. We believe that we are stewards to this planet, and see care for the environment as a calling as well.

 

I generally do not discuss the specifics of my beliefs on boards such as this because of the atmosphere of intolerance for non-Christian beliefs that I have encounter. I do not believe that all Christians are intolerant bigots. However, at the same time, I think there is a tendancy within certain groups in Christianity to be intolerant of the beliefs of others. Do you disagree with that?

 

Edited to add: And just to return in kind, what particular brand of Christianity do you subscribe to?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

[SemperParatus]

Beav,

 

Perhaps you have missed the past 50 posts of the 'airing of grievances'.

 

DK,

 

Thank you for sharing. I do not disrespect you or your beliefs. You are free to believe what you will.

 

Now, if I were to say to you, I think that Morrigan was a good human philosopher and really dig how she handled those Fomorians, would I be silly?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DanKroh]

Nope, you wouldn't be silly. You simply have a different belief about Morrigan than I do. However, I would praise you for your knowledge of Celtic mythology.

 

However, I am interested in the answers to two questions from my last post:

 

1. Do you disagree that there is intolerance for the beliefs of others within certain groups of Christians?

 

2. What denomination of Christianity to you personally subscribe to?

[SemperParatus]

"Nope, you wouldn't be silly. You simply have a different belief about Morrigan than I do. However, I would praise you for your knowledge of Celtic mythology."

 

So, should I take that to mean that all beliefs are equally valid and true?

 

 

"However, I am interested in the answers to two questions from my last post:

 

"1. Do you disagree that there is intolerance for the beliefs of others within certain groups of Christians?"

 

I would agree that intolerance may exist among people of all faiths and beliefs.

 

"2. What denomination of Christianity to you personally subscribe to?"

 

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I have worshipped as a Roman Catholic and a Presbyterian, and now have membership in a Christian Church founded out of the Restoration Movement of the early 19th century.

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[SR540Beaver]

Semper,

 

Actually I was going to make a crack about the Festivus 'airing of grievances', but decided to be on my best "Holiday" behavior. I don't want another lump of coal this year.

[DanKroh]

Semper asks: So, should I take that to mean that all beliefs are equally valid and true?

 

Depends on the nature of the beliefs. If it is a belief about something that is observable and verifiable, then no. If you believe that the sky is green, then that belief is not true.

 

However, if we are talking about religious beliefs, they are for the most part unverifiable by anyone else. So yes, unverifiable religious beliefs are all equally valid and true because they are valid and true to the person who holds them, and therefore, deserving of respect by the rest of us.

 

Rooster said in a previous post that he is dumbfounded as to why people can not see the "simple truth" of his beliefs. Well, that's because while they may be HIS truth, they are not necessarily "truth" to the rest of us. My "truth" is that all gods are really the same, so it doesn't really matter to me what you decide to call your god(s) because we are all really worshipping the creative force of the universe. Why doesn't he (and you) see my "simple truth"? Because it is unverifiable; I can not prove it, and you cannot provide proof that contradicts it. That is the nature of faith. Why should anyone's faith be less valid than anyone else's?

 

Yes, it is shameful that there is intolerance for the beliefs in others in all religions. However, since Christianity represents the majority religion in the country, don't they also represent the majority of the intolerance? Now, again, I'm not trying to paint all Christians as intolerant bigots. I'm just trying to get back to the title (if not point) of this thread, which is that the only people who see a "war on Christmas" are Christians who do not want to seem to acknowledge that Christmas is not the only holiday being celebrated this time of year.

 

I know of no Jews who are offended by being told Merry Christmas. I know of no Pagans who are offended by being told Merry Christmas. Yet, if you listen to the media, there are thousands of Christians out there who are offended if they are told ANYTHING BUT Merry Christmas. Offended to the point where they will boycott stores that do not use the word Christmas in their advertising and who do not force their store workers to say Merry Christmas to all their customers.

 

It seems the only people who are publically "airing their grievances" are Christians. Everyone else mostly seems to be simply reacting to being told that they are oppressing the Christian's right to celebrate Christmas.

[SemperParatus]

"However, if we are talking about religious beliefs, they are for the most part unverifiable by anyone else. So yes, unverifiable religious beliefs are all equally valid and true because they are valid and true to the person who holds them, and therefore, deserving of respect by the rest of us."

 

If one's 'religious belief' involved the worship of the Spirit of Intolerance and Disrespect, calling him or her to be blatantly disrespectful of all religions other than their own, as well as those that follow them, then by your own words, you would respect that belief and would therefore not be offended by the comments of such a person?

 

[DanKroh]

Semper asks: If one's 'religious belief' involved the worship of the Spirit of Intolerance and Disrespect, calling him or her to be blatantly disrespectful of all religions other than their own, as well as those that follow them, then by your own words, you would respect that belief and would therefore not be offended by the comments of such a person?

 

Ah, I thought I smelled a "trap" in your question. I was hoping I was wrong, but at least your trap shows imagination.

 

While I would respect their right to have that belief, I would draw the line at them expressing their intolerance and disrespect to me. Just as I respect the rights and beliefs of Christians, but do not have to put up with the disrespect and intolerance of some of them, either. I never said that I was not offended by the beliefs of some people, just that I would not be publically disrepectful of their beliefs. You are welcome to think that my beliefs are stupid, silly, and evil, just please have enough respect to keep those opinions to yourself.

 

Also, now you are talking about actions instead of beliefs. If there was a pagan religion that actually required the sacrifice of infants (and it existed somewhere other than the imaginations of anti-pagan critics), then I would oppose their right to use those actions to practice their beliefs as well.

[DanKroh]

Semper, I have thought of another answer to your question for your consideration.

 

Some people believe that respect is earned by being given. If your worshipper of the "Spirit of Intolerance and Disrespect" does not give respect to others, then he has not earned respect for his beliefs in return.

 

Personally, I think respect should be given by default (not earned), but it can also be taken away if it is not returned in kind. I will respect you and your beliefs up until the point when you have been disrespectful to me and my beliefs, then I am no longer under any obligation to give my respect. Still doesn't mean I will publically "dis" you or your beliefs, but the respect will no longer be there.

 

What happens when our beliefs are in conflict, as I'm sure some of them are? Well, then we try to discuss them in a civil fashion, perhaps giving our reasons why we each have our beliefs, but that can also be done without being disrespectful. I admit it is unlikely that either of us would convince the other, which is why I usually find those types of debates futile if that is your goal. However, my goals are usually more along the lines of educating others, maybe encouraging them to think critically about their own beliefs (and bringing about my own self-examination), but I know that convincing is probably futile.

[acco40]

Those in my areas know all about respect. It is one of Motowns (Muscle Shoals?) all time classics.

[evmori]

I love Motown!

 

Respect is earned.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[DanKroh]

Ed says: Respect is earned.

 

I must have missed the version of the Scout handbook where the 12th point of the Scout laws reads:

"A Scout is reverent toward God. He is faithful in his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others as long as that respect is earned and he thinks those beliefs are valid and true."

 

In my version of the Scout Handbook, Ed, the Scout law ends "He respects of the beliefs of others." Period, end of statement.

 

So tell me Ed, with these statements:

"Saturnalia was basically a sex & booze orgy!"

"The god Saturn? And pray, what does this god do that would make anyone want to celebrate it?"

"Cool planet? That's it? That's what I figured. Nothing!"

 

do you think that you have earned the respect of Pagan scouters and scouts (and this Pagan in particular)? Do you think you have done your best to earn the respect of Jewish and Muslim scouts and scouters?

 

Should those scouts and scouters extend respect to you and your beliefs if you have not earned it?

 

[evmori]

do you think that you have earned the respect of Pagan scouters and scouts (and this Pagan in particular)? Do you think you have done your best to earn the respect of Jewish and Muslim scouts and scouters?

 

Earned a pagan Scouters respect how? By compromising my beliefs? Or by caving in and saying I believe in something I don't?

 

I have many Jewish Scouting friends and we have a mutual respect for each other. I don't know any Muslim Scouters so I can't answer that.

 

Should those scouts and scouters extend respect to you and your beliefs if you have not earned it?

 

I am a blunt & straight forward person. I am a devout Christian and not ashamed to let it show. If others respect that fine. If they don't fine.

 

If you want to base who you respect on what is posted in these forums that's up to you. I prefer to meet someone face to face & spend some time whit them before I respect them or not. Doing anything less is shallow.

 

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[DanKroh]

Ed says: Earned a pagan Scouters respect how? By compromising my beliefs? Or by caving in and saying I believe in something I don't?

 

Actually, Ed, you don't have to earn my respect. I give it freely until such time as you might prove yourself unworhty of it.

 

But I'm truly curious, Ed, could you please specify which of your beliefs you would have to compromise to be respectful of a Pagan Scouter's beliefs?

 

Could you also specify what you think you would have to say you believe in that you don't in order to be respectful of a Pagan Scouter's beliefs?

 

For me, I have to say that I don't feel that I've had to compromise any of my beliefs, cave in to anything, or say I believe anything that I actually don't in order to (at least give my best effort to) be respectful about the religious beliefs of others.

 

Ed also says: If you want to base who you respect on what is posted in these forums that's up to you. I prefer to meet someone face to face & spend some time whit them before I respect them or not. Doing anything less is shallow.

 

Well then, color me shallow. But being a devout UU Pagan, I'll continue to follow the doctrine of my religion that says that all people are inherently worthy of respect (until they prove themselves otherwise). Although, frankly, I'm surprised that while you are not being respectful to someone because you have not met them "face to face & spend some time [with] them" that they are willing to meet you face to face and spend time with you in order to earn your respect.(This message has been edited by DanKroh)