war on Christmas

[Rooster7]

DanKroh

 

And why can't I celebrate the beauty of his life just because I do not accept that he was divine? That's like saying that because I'm not black, I can't celebrate MLK Jr. Day. To me, Jesus was a great man who was certainly touched by God. To you, he was/is the Son of God. You are entitled to your belief, just as I am entitled to mine.

 

Yes, we are. But use some common sense here. Your comparison to MLK Jr. is amazingly lacking. Jesus proclaimed that no one could come to the Father except through Him. He made it clear in many different ways, if you want salvation, you must accept Him and His perfect sacrifice on the cross. In order for those words to make sense to anyone, one must believe in Jesus divinity.

 

GernBlansten,

 

Now what if that religion were Mormon, Catholic or Islam. Would that make you uncomfortable if you didn't share that belief? Would you have any concerns that you might be persecuted for your beliefs?

 

Theres a huge difference between what you fear and what our founding fathers were willing to permit (in the name of religious freedom).

 

The whole point of having a government that is non-religious, dare I say SECULAR, is to allow the people to worship as they see fit

 

Perhaps not by your interpretation, but that of many who embrace the now twisted interpretation of Jeffersons letter, religious freedom means abolishing all public signs of faith and in particularly on publicly owned lands. This was not our founding fathers intent. That can be proven as fact. Abolishing religion in the public square is most certainly an anti-religious view and not merely the posture a non-religious government.

 

[Kudu]

By your reasoning, anyone who does anything that can be remotely tied to some pagan holiday (i.e. take time off from work, light candles, or dance), is celebrating that holiday. Thats ridiculous.

 

Rooster, like most secularists, all you can think about is getting out of work, lighting some candles, and dancing!

 

You fail to acknowledge the deeply spiritual aspects of this holy day: the celebration of peace on earth, gift giving, helping those less fortunate, and--of course--bringing evergreens into the home on the winter solstice to celebrate the rebirth of life. These are the deeply meaningful traditions of December 25th that make this day uniquely the celebration of the god Saturn.

 

As Ed points out, Jesus was not born on December 25th. Christians just happened to pull the same day out of a hat, so to avoid all of the confusion, why not move it to the third Friday or Monday of December and make a three day weekend out of it?

 

Kudu

[ronvo]

Here's Jefferson's Letter - I agree that he was trying to promote that government wouldn't interfere with one's right to freely worship as one believes. However I think that by making the statemnet that there is a wall and in other statements he made elsewhere, he also did not want relgion to interfere with government.

 

Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury Baptists

The Final Letter, as Sent

 

 

To messers. Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson, a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

 

 

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, & in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.

 

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

 

Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

 

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection & blessing of the common father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves & your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

 

Th Jefferson

Jan. 1. 1802.

 

[DanKroh]

Rooster says: Jesus proclaimed that no one could come to the Father except through Him. He made it clear in many different ways, if you want salvation, you must accept Him and His perfect sacrifice on the cross. In order for those words to make sense to anyone, one must believe in Jesus divinity.

 

So you believe. I don't. The difference is, I'm not trying to tell you what you can and can't celebrate based on your beliefs. If you want to celebrate Hannukah or Yule, go for it. If I want to celebrate Christmas based on my beliefs about who and what Jesus was, you don't get to naysay me. I'm sure I don't celebrate Christmas in the same (spiritual) way as you, but I'm not going to tell you HOW you have to celebrate Christmas, either.

 

My original point is that my main winter holiday is Yule. Many of the customs and outward symbols of Yule are similar to those of Christmas, yet many Christians feel they don't need to acknowledge or respect the other holidays being celebrated during this season. An evergreen tree is a "holiday" tree because it can represent two different holidays, Christmas and Yule. "Happy Holidays" IS a respectful greeting because it acknowledges that there are many holidays (Hannukah, Kwanza, Yule, etc.) going on this time of year. Those people who insist that you absolutely MUST say "Merry Christmas", even when you know that the person you are addressing is not a Christian are not being respectful of the beliefs of others. And since we don't all walk around wearing little badges on our coats to designate our religion, not everyone is comfortable assuming that the person they are addressing is Christian, and are happier saying "Happy Holidays" because they feel it is more respectful to everyone.

[theysawyoucomin']

We having a hot time in the old town tonight!

 

Really,

I included Blacks comment because it came from the highest Federal "bench".

 

I wish the ACLU heard the founders statements on gun rights as loudly and "church and state". Heck we'd have a lot less gun control. But they're only for a few civil liberties. Some of which include debauchery.

[bluegoose]

Maybe it's just because I'm an English major and am taught to read into things and analyze them, that I think that the declaration of war is something of a satirical nature. From the way I understand it, he believes that many "conservative Christian pundits" believe that there is a war on Christmas. My guess is that this "war" is the way that some people want to have exclusive references to Christmas removed from public spaces. So why would he want to declare war on Christmas? One possibility is that he is one of the aforementioned pundits, and would like to prevent humilitiation of his fellows, by them being proved wrong (about the reality of a "war on Christmas.") Considering his new movie, I seem to think that this is not his motivation. Also, it would seem illogical to take a position of opposition to your fellows just to save [their] face. Rather, I believe that Mr. Flemming declared war on Christmas so that when the conservatives mention this "war" it directly relates to something trivial that most people will not take seriously (his declaration of war.) This thought brings up the question of why he would go through all this effort. My best guess is that he's trying to make the point that 'there is no "war on Christmas" and all people are trying to do by removing exclusive references to Christmas is create a free society.'

 

What about the Boy Scout background? I can think of a few possibile reasons for why he is using it. Maybe he's trying to say that the BSA has declared war on Christmas. I don't think this is case, but it is possible. Another possibility is that he's trying to make people think that the BSA is a conservative Christian group and needs to become more diverse. I'm not sure how putting our symbols on his declaration accomplishes that though. Another thought that came to mind works directly with the 'there is no war' idea. Maybe Brian Flemming used to be a scout and through Scouting he came into contact with those from other religions and believes that Scouting fosters religious diversity and tolerance. Or maybe he has just observed this as an outsider. If this were the case, I would be led to the conclusion that the Scouting movement is part of the 'war' by promoting diversity and tolerance, which would explain why our symbols are used in his declaration.

 

Just some food for thought. Any other ideas?

 

Not being a Christian, it is rare that I quote Christmas poetry, but I think Henry Wadsworth Longfellow said it best: "...With peace on earth, good-will to men."

 

Be safe, and may peace be with you always...

 

[evmori]

These are the deeply meaningful traditions of December 25th that make this day uniquely the celebration of the god Saturn.

 

The god Saturn? And pray, what does this god do that would make anyone want to celebrate it?

 

The only one who doesn't understand the aspects of this holy day are those who don't believe in Christ.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[SR540Beaver]

I was listening to O'Reilly on the radio today and he was going off about the "war on Christmas" and complaining about Happy Holidays. Boy, I hate to inform him....but I'm 48 and I've heard Happy Holidays and Season's Greetings as far back as I can remember Christmas. I even remeber Andy Williams singing Happy Holidays. It is much ado about nothing. This time of year is usually a slow news cycle and Fox has a habit of inventing news when there isn't any. That and all of their pundits write books and promote each other. John Gibson has his new book out and it has set the tone for the Fox family to cry about the sky falling. BTW, are you aware that Henry Ford declared there was a war on Christmas by the Jews in America back in 1915? It seemed to have weathered the storm nicely over the last 90 years.

 

One other note. My 7th grade son came home from school asking me if it was wrong or illegal for the school to be talking about Christmas. He was curious because he hears all of those guys I listen to on TV and the radio talking about it all the time. He was concerned because his school and teachers have been talking about Christmas and putting up decorations and such. He didn't have a problem with it, he just thought schools were not allowed after hearing all the Fox pundits going off about it so much.

 

Maybe some folks think there is a war, it is still Christmas in these parts.

[Kudu]

Ed asks:

 

The god Saturn? And pray, what does this god do that would make anyone want to celebrate it?

 

Well, for one thing, he has the coolest-looking planet.

 

Kudu

[OldGreyEagle]

Well, I will try this again. Actually, I don't know when the "i" in Christmas became a "short" i as in pig instead of the long i sound in Christ. But the word Christmas is a contraction of the phrase Christ Mass. To wish someone a Merry Christ Mass, was to wish them to be happy and enjoy the Mass on December 25th, the day we celebrate Jesus's birth.

 

There is another puzzlement, Christmas is not the most important holiday in the Christian calender, I can think of another holiday much more important and perhaps another at least as important and as far as I can tell, no one has attacked those holidays.

[Rooster7]

DanKroh,

 

You can believe in whatever you want. Im merely saying that your acknowledgement of Jesus as a great teacher and philosopher, but not as Gods son is incredibly silly. Its akin to saying that I believe in the planets and stars, but not the Earth and Sun. It simply does not make sense to acknowledge one without the other.

 

Why do you suggest that non-Christians will be, or ought to be, offended when others wish them a "Merry Christmas"? Why do you consider this greeting an insult to non-Christians, when almost universally throughout this country, people warmly accept the occasional "Happy Hanukkah". I have faith in the minority religions to be just as gracious and accepting as the vast majority. And I also believe that they have the intellectual capacity to discern between a good hearted greeting and some sort of slight made by the occasional bigot.

 

Ed,

 

I wonder how many folks on this board will be singing the praises of Saturn in about 50 years. My guess is, none.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[GernBlansten]

Yes OGE,

I know you are taking about Easter Egg Day. A happy time for my family to wake up to all types of chocolate confections, hidden in the garden and round the house. A truley joyous time of year.

[evmori]

Rooster,

You are so correct!

 

OGE,

I think Gern knows which day you are talking about. Although he seems to have the meaning of it completely wrong.

 

Kudu,

Cool planet? That's it? That's what I figured. Nothing!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[SemperParatus]

"Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." ~ Phillipians 2:9-11

 

Get your squawkin' in now boys, 'cuz your time is runnin' out.

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Ed,

Aside from having a really cool planet, the god Saturn in old Roman beliefs was held to be the god of agriculture and the harvest. It was believed that he also introduced civilization and government in ancient times. So, not too bad a guy as gods go

 

Rooster,

Believing that Christ was a great teacher and philosopher, but not the son of God, is "silly"? Why is that? Because it doesn't match your belief system? Sounds pretty disrespectful of any non-Christian believer.