war on Christmas

[ronvo]

Rooster,

 

I was just mentioning something about myself. So you can know a little more about me. I am a liberal but also believe (contrary to waht the so-called conservatives say) there much need for respect of others beliefs. I defend the producers right to have his say - I think he could have chosen a more approiate way to say it. And if he is trying to also make a statement about BSA he needs to come out and say so.

 

UZ

I belive it was Thos. Jefferson who first spoke of the wall the first amendment erected between chruch and state.

 

"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."(Thomas Jefferson, as President, in a letter to the Baptists of Danbury, Connecticut, 1802)

 

 

Christmas has itself become so secularized and part of our society I think it can be defined aprt from its religious roots and meaning. I see no reason why anyone should be offended by being offred a"Merry Christmas". If they want to return Christmas to being more religious maybe they should offer a "Holy and Blessed Christmas"

 

In a way I think is it is all very sad that we argue over such thing when the real work of Christ is needing to be done.

 

Feed the hungry

Shelter the homeless

Give drink to the thirsty

Console the grieving

 

Gern,

AMEN!

 

On the news this morning a Senator was talking about how we don't want Iraq to become a theocracy and the conservatives I'm sure are saying yeah taht's right. Only because it is the wrong theocracy! They would love to have one here where they and be in control.

 

YIS,

ronvo

 

 

[GernBlansten]

The producer of that image (the declaration of war, remember the purpose of this thread), used images associated with Christianity to drive his point home. Not sure why he didn't use the little fish we so commonly see on peoples autos. But it brings up the undeniable impression that BSA and Christianity are tightly associated through symbolism. Not sure this is a good thing as BSA is supposed to be about boys of all faiths. An analogy would be everyone associates Kleenex with facial tissue. Now is anyone aware that Kleenex offers other products?

[Kudu]

And Saturnalia is celebrate where now?

 

If you decorate your home with images of Santa (aka Father Time), light candles, bring greens into your home, take time off from work, celebrate peace on earth, give gifts, help those less fortunate, or dance in the new solar year, you are celebrating Saturnalia, even though some people in this increasingly secular age have forgotten the true meaning of this holy day.

 

The Roman Empire no longer exists. Whereas Christianity does.

 

Christianity was a product of the Roman Empire, and we celebrated that with mangers and angels until the Christians lost the war on Christmas in 2005, didn't we?

 

Is Fox News showing any film footage from their embedded reporters in the war on Christmas?

 

Kudu

[Trevorum]

I can't understand why anyone would be offended by someone wishing them a "Merry Christmas". Unless, of course, the greeting was gratuitously intended to offend. I suppose that happens.

 

In our society, Christmas is a secular holiday as well as a religious one. I see nothing wrong with that. It's a fine holiday for everyone, with plenty of solid pagan roots (as Kudu points out). My family celebrates the season of good will as a joyous cultural tradition. My wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" means neither that I am Christian nor that I assume they are. If someone responds back to me with "Happy Chanukah", or "Happy Yule", or a "Merry Solstice", I am gladdened.

 

By the way, the 2005 winter solstice will occur at 10:35 am PST on December 21.

[Trevorum]

I can't understand why anyone would be offended by someone wishing them a "Merry Christmas". Unless, of course, the greeting was gratuitously intended to offend. I suppose that happens.

 

In our society, Christmas is a secular holiday as well as a religious one. I see nothing wrong with that. It's a fine holiday for everyone, with plenty of solid pagan roots (as Kudu points out). My family celebrates the season of good will as a joyous cultural tradition. My wishing someone a "Merry Christmas" means neither that I am Christian nor that I assume they are. If someone responds back to me with "Happy Chanukah", or "Happy Yule", or a "Merry Solstice", I am gladdened.

 

By the way, the 2005 winter solstice will occur at 10:35 am PST on December 21.

[DanKroh]

Ed says: And Saturnalia is celebrate where now? The Roman Empire no longer exists. Whereas Christianity does.

 

Saturnalia is celebrated right here in the good old U.S. of A. by Greek and Roman Reconstructionist Pagans. The Roman Empire may no longer exist, but the religions that were practiced in that time are still around.

 

If you are interested in learning about some of the religions of others, I can point you to some very good interfaith forums.

[Kahuna]

Well said, Trevorum. Christmas is both a secular and a religious holiday. Regardless of the history of why Christmas is celebrated on December 25, that is the holiday celebrated on that date. The trees are Christmas trees.

 

Japan is a largely Buddhist or Shinto, not Christian country. Yet, if you went shopping on the Ginza tonight, you would have a hard time believing you weren't in New York. There are Christmas decorations everywhere. I happened to be there on Christmas eve some years ago and was several times wished a Merry Christmas by the salespeople or the greeters who stand at the door of the department stores.

 

I am a Buddhist, but I have Christmas decorations up and I send Christmas cards. I certainly take no offense if wished a Merry Christmas, but neither do I mind being wished happy holidays. It's just silly to try to call the trees holiday trees and rename everything in the interest of political correctness.

[Kudu]

I am a Buddhist, but I have Christmas decorations up and I send Christmas cards...The trees are Christmas trees.

 

So the Buddhists have declared war on Saturnalia? Our mainland Shangas didn't get the memo :-/

 

As Stephen Colbert said in his Traditional Christmas How-To Guide, the Roman practice of bringing an evergreen into the home and placing candles on it is such a traditional Christmas activity, that it predates the birth of Jesus Christ himself!

 

Kudu

 

[DanKroh]

Kahuna says: Regardless of the history of why Christmas is celebrated on December 25, that is the holiday celebrated on that date. The trees are Christmas trees.

 

Yeah, and Yule is the holiday celebrated on the winter solstice, in some Pagan traditions. My tree is a Yule tree. So what's your point?

 

Again, part of the problem is that Christmas is not the only winter holiday that has an evergreen tree as it's symbol. So by calling them "holiday trees", people are at least giving a passing nod to the fact that they might be representing different holidays for different people.

 

It has been my experience by and large that the only people who really get offended by not getting the holiday greeting that they think they deserve are certain fundamentalist Christians who think it is disrespectful to them to wish them anything but a Merry Christmas.

 

Actually, I think I'm getting kind of partial to "Happy Holy Days"

[evmori]

If you decorate your home with images of Santa (aka Father Time), light candles, bring greens into your home, take time off from work, celebrate peace on earth, give gifts, help those less fortunate, or dance in the new solar year, you are celebrating Saturnalia, even though some people in this increasingly secular age have forgotten the true meaning of this holy day.

 

Huh? Saturnalia was basically a sex & booze orgy!

 

Christianity was a product of the Roman Empire, and we celebrated that with mangers and angels until the Christians lost the war on Christmas in 2005, didn't we?

 

Huh? Christianity is founded on the life & teachings of Jesus Christ! And it's not a product! The Roman Empire died centuries ago. Christianity lives on forever!

 

Kudu,

You are so off the mark with your statements! It's scary!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

DanKroh,

 

Personally, I have no problem with Christmas. I celebrate it like I do any other day of recognition for the life of a great teacher and philosopher. It's right up there with MLK Jr. Day in my book, and President's Day.

 

Your statement is truly a foolish one. Jesus Christ was either who he said he was, or he was a mad man. If he is not who he said he was; theres no reason to recognize Christmas. Christians and others, who present Jesus as merely a great teacher and/or philosopher, have not examined His life or His message. They are attempting to intellectualize Christ as someone other than whom he really was and is Gods son.

 

Kudu,

 

By your reasoning, anyone who does anything that can be remotely tied to some pagan holiday (i.e. take time off from work, light candles, or dance), is celebrating that holiday. Thats ridiculous.

 

Ronvo,

 

Since youre quoting Jefferson, try placing that quote in the proper and full context of his letter to the Danbury Baptist Association. Jeffersons words were always meant to quell concerns from religious people that the government may one day choose to intrude on their ability to practice their faith freely. You have turned Jeffersons wall metaphor on its head. That is, Jefferson was not troubled by the notion that one day people in government would recognize and encourage people of faith and/or allow government agencies to do so. If that was his concern, why did Jefferson attend church services conducted in the Capital building? Why did he allow dozens of other such worship services be held in other federal buildings throughout Washington, D.C.? Why did he personally approve the designation of federal funds for outreach to American Indians? Why did he sign into law a tax exempt status for churches? The inconsistencies are huge. Secular proponents of this revised interpretation of Jeffersons letter (most notably, Justice Hugo Black), ignore history and common sense. The First Amendment was not intended to stop the states from establishing a church or favoring a particular religion. Both Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists understood this. The very day Jefferson sent his letter to the Danbury Baptists, he attended church services in the House of Representatives.

 

[DanKroh]

Ed says: Saturnalia was basically a sex & booze orgy!

 

Wow, now there's a statement that couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

In ancient times, Saturnalia was a harvest celebration, marked by feasting, gift giving, and the relaxing of social structures that allowed slaves to be treated as equals to their masters for the day.

 

Today, Saturnalia is a celebration of the harvest, and the rebirth of the Sun, like many other solstice celebrations.

 

BTW, Ed, the Roman Empire was not a religion. Many religions actually florished during the Roman Empire, including Judaism and many Pagan sects. Again, even though the Roman Empire is gone, the religions that were practiced during that time are still, for the most part, alive and well around the world.

[DanKroh]

Rooster says: Your statement is truly a foolish one. Jesus Christ was either who he said he was, or he was a mad man. If he is not who he said he was; theres no reason to recognize Christmas. Christians and others, who present Jesus as merely a great teacher and/or philosopher, have not examined His life or His message. They are attempting to intellectualize Christ as someone other than whom he really was and is Gods son.

 

And your statement is equally foolish. What makes you think that I have not examined the teachings of Jesus only because I do not accept the idea of his divinity? And why can't I celebrate the beauty of his life just because I do not accept that he was divine? That's like saying that because I'm not black, I can't celebrate MLK Jr. Day. To me, Jesus was a great man who was certainly touched by God. To you, he was/is the Son of God. You are entitled to your belief, just as I am entitled to mine.

 

It is not part of the doctrine of my religious beliefs that I get to tell other people that their beliefs are wrong. Just because your interpretation of the teachings of Christ allow you to believe that you get to tell other people that they are wrong, doesn't mean that I have to accept your judgement, either.

[Kudu]

Saturnalia was basically a sex & booze orgy!

 

Ed, you are confusing Saturnalia with Christmas office parties.

 

Kudu

 

[GernBlansten]

Rooster,

Would it be ok with you if the US Government adopted a specific religion to align itself with? In my best Ronald Reagan impression: "TEAR DOWN THAT WALL!"

 

Not that the public would be required to worship the "official" religion, just have an "official" religion. Now what if that religion were Mormon, Catholic or Islam. Would that make you uncomfortable if you didn't share that belief? Would you have any concerns that you might be persecuted for your beliefs?

 

The whole point of having a government that is non-religious, dare I say SECULAR, is to allow the people to worship as they see fit. Religion doesn't need government to promote itself. It needs to be left to flourish on its own without official regulation or promotion.