war on Christmas

[BrentAllen]

Beaver (I sure wish y'all would use your names, so I know who I'm talking to),

I've been unhappy about these school policies long before Gibson and O'Reilly took on the issue. To me, it is more PC crap. You may call it silly, but to me, it sure is silly to ban the colors green and red. How offensive can those colors be?? How about that poinsettia - is it going to be trying to convert students to Christianity?? These policies are what are ridiculous! And yes, I am passionate about it. This is the same mentality behind the Zero Tolerance policies that end up causing an Eagle Scout to get expelled because he has some type of knife in his vehicle at school, which he forgot to take out after a weekend camping trip. In our case, one parent in a school of 700 students complains, and the administration folds like a house of cards. How can having Christmas ornaments for sale in the Holiday Store be offensive, or in violation of someone's rights?? This one parent complains, and they are removed. No one forced her kids to buy them, but she was allowed to prevent any other kids from doing so. These administrators have PhD's, but have lost all common sense!

O'Reilly and Gibson have taken on the issue to correct the false impression that the Supreme Court has ruled you can't have Christmas in the classroom. There never has been any such ruling!

As for businesses, it cracks me up how they choose to use Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas in their advertising - to be more inclusive - but then use "After Christmas Sale" the next day. I don't really have a problem with what they use in advertising, though it seems like they could at least acknowledge the reason for all the business they are receiving. My problem is when they insist their employees use Happy Holidays. Maybe it is good business - or maybe it is bad. From the news reports, there are plenty of shoppers out there upset over this, and some companies have changed policies, to include Merry Christmas in advertising/salutations. I'm not naive - they aren't doing this to "save Christmas" - they are doing it to make more money.

[Kudu]

The Plano schools did not allow green and red plates and napkins, and icing on cupcakes.

 

The way I heard it, the Plano schools did not special order red & green napkins, and instead used the white ones they already had on hand. This was interpreted as not allowing them.

 

From here in Dunwoody, how much evidence do you want?

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Since your wife is an employee it shouldnt be hard for her to get something on official stationary. Send it on to Bill OReilly.

 

Still waiting for the numbers on those Aztec webpages.

 

Well, I usually let that kind of fish in a barrel stuff go, but OK, you write:

 

1) Suddenly, the bouquet of weeds burst into blooms of brilliant red, and all who saw them were certain that they had witnessed a Christmas miracle right before their eyes.

 

From that day on, the bright red flowers were known as the Flores de Noche Buena, or Flowers of the Holy Night, for they bloomed each year during the Christmas season.

 

There is a movement in Mexico to make Pepita a saint, which should mean that previous to this incident poinsettias did not turn red. Are you saying that the story is really true?

 

2. With 564 websites, all with the exact same language on the legend of the poinsettia, it sounds like that is a pretty popular and well excepted version of the Christmas plant. How many websites can you find, all with the exact same language, that explain the Aztec history?

Case closed.

 

That is so priceless that I simply refuse to spoil it :-/

 

I'm glad you now understand the "Merry Christmas" greeting and federal holidays issue.

 

No, I said that I dont understand what you believe the federal holidays issue proves.

 

As far as the Merry Christmas greeting goes, we simply dont know how many airline employees are oppressed Christian victims who are forced to say Happy Holidays when they really want to say Merry Christmas. Perhaps the best solution is to make them all take lie detector tests, sign a certified statement as to their intentions, and wear a disclaimer statement that reveals what they really mean :-/

 

It wasnt that long ago that Christian fundamentalists were lamenting the fact that Merry Christmas had lost its meaning and had become secularized because the phrase was used by retailers to sell stuff. They were correct, of course, because Merry Christmas was once the very meaning of Happy Holy Day, which Christian extremists now denounce as not being Christian enough.

 

I'm curious - are you also nostalgic for the human sacrifices and slavery of Saturnalia?

 

Im not aware that Saturn demanded human sacrifices, but some people consider Abraham virtuous for his willingness to murder his son when the god that he worshiped demanded a human sacrifice. Likewise biblical justifications for slavery were commonly used by mainstream Christians in this country not so very long ago.

 

I really am nostalgic for the days when Christian fundamentalists hung Santa from a tree and waved their Bibles at him. At least there was an honest spiritual statement behind it.

 

I don't understand the subtle nuances of southern culture, so maybe some Christians have found a way to use poinsettias and "Christmas colors" to be mean, and--who knows--maybe some non-Christians really have taken the bait.

 

The culture has changed, and forcing non-Christian school children to participate in school pageants about the virgin birth of the baby Lord Jesus is now regarded by many of to be just plain creepy. It is hard to see Christians as the victims there.

 

But claiming that schools in the deep south don't allow "Christian colors"? That is a masterstroke!

 

Fox News is entertainment, and as long as Stephen Colbert is on vacation, it is the best entertainment around.

 

Kudu

 

[BrentAllen]

Uh... McFly... that would be the paper plates and napkins the parents brought in for classroom parties...not the ones used in the cafeteria. Same with the cupcakes. Parents were told not to bring in those items, in those colors. Comprende? I can see having these discussions with you is not going to be easy.

You really don't like Christians, do you? What - were you the one kid in your school or neighborhood who wasn't? Exactly where do your religious beliefs lie? If you tell me it has to do with Saturn, and you aren't aware of the human sacrifices, I'm going to be awfully disappointed!

As for the poinsettias, I believe I included the proper title for the story: The LEGEND of the Poinsettia. Webster will explain what a legend is, better than me.

[Kudu]

 

Same with the cupcakes.

 

OK, I haven't been paying attention to that stuff. Your version seems to be consistent what John Gibson (Fox News) is saying. I think its a great story, and I'm surprised that the urban legend Websites haven't picked up on it yet.

 

The cupcake icing detail is just too perfect. You know what they say about "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't."

 

I can see having these discussions with you is not going to be easy.

 

*Shrug*

 

You really don't like Christians, do you?

 

It depends on the Christians. I don't like political religious fundamentalists.

 

What - were you the one kid in your school or neighborhood who wasn't?

 

I was an angelic Anglican altar boy :-/ As a teenager I read everything written by the pop Anglican author, Alan Watts, except for one out-of-print book, Easter, Its Story and Meaning, which I couldn't find in any bookstore or library.

 

Exactly where do your religious beliefs lie?

 

I don't believe in any supernatural stuff what-so-ever, so I would be in general agreement with the Anglican Professor Rev. Baden Powell. But (except for the "argument from design" stuff) I also like Baden-Powell's "Practical Christianity" and "Religion of the Deep Woods" spiritual basis for Scouting, which is derived from his father's book, The Order of Nature, See:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

If you tell me it has to do with Saturn, and you aren't aware of the human sacrifices, I'm going to be awfully disappointed!

 

I find Abraham's willingness to gut his son more interesting :-/

 

As for the poinsettias, I believe I included the proper title for the story: The LEGEND of the Poinsettia.

 

I love legends, but I don't see them as much of a basis for claiming victimhood.

 

Kudu

 

[fgoodwin]

I don't know anything about banning poinsettias from a public school, but I do know that red poinsettias were banned from the St. Paul City Hall / Ramsey County Courthouse in December, 2001:

 

Petty poinsettia problem pinched; War of holiday flowers won't be waged again at City Hall.(NEWS)(Around St. Paul)

Joe Kimball.

 

Sing joyfully; there'll be no repeat of last year's poinsettia pandemonium at City Hall this holiday season.

 

Ramsey County officials promise that red poinsettias will be included in the holiday decorations placed around the giant God of Peace statue in the great hall of the City Hall/Courthouse downtown.

 

And red, white and blue ribbons will be attached to the columns around the hall, along with recognition of all the religious and ethnic holidays celebrated at this time of year.

 

Last year, all heck broke loose when red poinsettias were banished from the hall because county officials declared they had a religious connotation. White poinsettias, though, were allowed.

 

That set off a major battle, dubbed the War of the Poinsettias, as talk-show hosts from around the country railed against the county's floral attempt to be politically correct.

 

Finally, some courthouse workers (who might or might not wear black robes by day) smuggled in a raft of the red-leafed plants and placed them amidst the white poinsettia display.

 

Until Thursday's ruling in favor of red poinsettias, some of those same guardians of truth, justice and the Christmas way stood ready to smuggle in another bunch of plants this year.

 

Minneapolis Star-Tribune, Nov 22, 2002 p4B

 

As far as I can tell, the article isn't available on the public Internet; I found it using "Infotrac" from my public library.

[fgoodwin]

O'Reilly: I made mistake

 

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-oreilly_21met.ART0.North.Edition2.b074dc5.html

http://tinyurl.com/8cpxm

 

Plano ISD: Talk show host wrong about banned clothing colors

 

08:21 AM CST on Wednesday, December 21, 2005

By KIM BREEN / The Dallas Morning News

 

National talk show host Bill O'Reilly acknowledged to his television audience Tuesday that he made a mistake when he said a Plano school banned Christmas-colored clothing.

 

But he went on to cite allegations made in a year-old federal lawsuit against the district that he said have landed Plano "right in the middle of the Christmas controversy."

 

Mr. O'Reilly put Plano schools in the national spotlight this month when he said a school banned students from wearing red and green because they are Christmas colors. "That's flat-out fascism," he told viewers of The O'Reilly Factor on the Fox News Channel.

 

School district attorney Richard Abernathy demanded a retraction last week. School officials said there has never been such a policy.

 

Mr. O'Reilly said Tuesday that the lawsuit includes an allegation that parents were told to bring only white supplies to a school party.

 

"Now I made a mistake a few days ago when I said clothing was included in that party dictum," Mr. O'Reilly said. "Clothing was not included. It was colors of plates and cupcakes and things like that."

 

He named other allegations that have been made against the district in the lawsuit filed by parents, including one that a student was not allowed to hand out to classmates "Jesus Loves Me" pencils.

 

Karla Oliver, executive director for government and community relations at the school district, said she was not able to see the show Tuesday night and could not comment about what Mr. O'Reilly said.

 

"One thing that we've stood by all along is that you are certainly entitled to your own opinions, and we respect that," she said. "But you're not entitled to your own facts."

 

Mr. O'Reilly said Mr. Abernathy declined to be on the program and interviewed Greg Knapp of KLIF (570 AM), which airs The O'Reilly Radio Factor in Dallas.

 

"I'm here in New York. I don't know what they're doing in Plano," Mr. O'Reilly said, adding that he used to live in Richardson.

 

Mr. Knapp said he heard from parents who complained that Christmas items were banned from Plano parties.

 

Mr. O'Reilly asked: "Is there or was there an anti-Christmas bias in any of the schools up there as far as you could tell?" Mr. Knapp replied: "Absolutely."

 

Mr. O'Reilly said the facts would come out in court. He expressed surprise the issue was coming up in North Texas.

 

"It's amazing because that's not a liberal crazy area" like Berkeley, Calif., or Austin, he said.

 

Mr. O'Reilly also mentioned in the show that Plano schools Superintendent Doug Otto on Tuesday "changed his policy."

 

Ms. Oliver said no new policies were created Tuesday. She said the district did reiterate to principals that schools cannot prohibit red and green decorations from school winter parties, many of which went on as usual Tuesday in Plano elementary schools.

 

E-mail kbreen@dallasnews.com

[scoutingagain]

I wonder if Jesus would have a fit if He were told He could only wear a white robe?

 

He is either busting a gut laughing at all of this or rolling His eyes or planning on mutating that Bird Flu virus and starting over again.

 

SA

[Kudu]

Here is an account of the Plano situation from a Scouter in the area:

 

> If it is true, was it written by an evil atheist whose only joy comes from

> stealing the icing from little children's' Christmas cupcakes, or by a

> Christian martyr intent on proving his or her victimhood? :-/

 

Ok, now I've gone and read the suit, which you can yourself find at

Liberty Legal's website, here (pdf file)

http://www.libertylegal.org/pdfs/Plano%20Case.pdf

 

I've lived in Texas all my life, as a non-christian, (which is one of the

reasons my daughters will never go to public schools), and it's

a little difficult to express how the atmospheres in the schools are.

You kind of need to live it to believe it. You're dealing with people

who sincerely believe everyone who doesn't go to their church

will burn in hell forever, and that it's really, really important to get

all the other kids to go to their church because they'd be sad to

think of their friends burning in hell.

 

Basically, I think it's a little of both, except that the "evil athiests"

are likely Christians. When you read the suit, you see that there's

a group of parents who are consistently making demands of the

administration -- take these books out of the library, let my kids

pass out tickets to Prestonwood Baptist Church's sunrise Easter

Service, let my kids pass out pencils that say Jesus is the reason

for the season (and they will NOT give any gifts if they can't be

religious gifts), etc, etc. The administration probably went overboard,

and I think the napkin/cupcake color ban probably occurred.

But understand that regardless of the napkin/cupcake situation, the

suit would have been filed for all the other reasons. Administrators

are stuck in a bind in trying to balance the one students rights of

expression against other students right not to be harassed (a la

Santa Fe ISD, the "football prayer" case, in which the administration

abetted long-standing and severe harrassment.) I don't envy them.

My personal solution - - early dismissal on the day of the Christmas

party or any singalongs or whatever, and have the event after the

dismissal. That way parents who don't want there children subjected

to it can make arrangements to take their kids home. Or, have

the party at night. Basically, make the party opt-in instead of

opt-out and let whoever wants to bring whatever they want to.

 

Incidentally, my sister was looking at sending her kids to Prestonwood

Academy (URL here: http://www.prestonwoodchristian.org/ ) and her

ex was really upset when my parents said they wouldn't help with

payment for that school. It took awhile for my sister to get it, because

she thought the objection was only about the inadequate science

education they would get there. Then I told my mom check out where

these kids go to college, and my mom sent that to my sister, and she

started looking for other schools. A side note, but seriously, what the

parents want is for the public school curricula and atmosphere to be like

that of religious schools, and they will be satisfied with nothing less.

And that's whats really going on in Plano ISD, imv.

 

 

[Rooster7]

Scoutingagain,

 

The issue is not about Christmas colors. The issue is about who gets to control our culture. There are public officials throughout the country who are ignorant about what separation of church and state means and/or have taken it upon themselves to eliminate public signs of religion. Either way, I disdain the systems that allow them to exist unhindered. No government body should smother your right, and your childs right, to publicly express one's faith whether that means offering a prayer for a friend in a hallway between classes, reading your Bible during lunch, or bringing red and green napkins to a school "holiday" party. Look at the bigger picture.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[scoutingagain]

Rooster,

 

My post was tongue in cheek and I hope you did not take offense, none was intended.

 

I agree with you. I see no reason why public officials should inhibit anyones right to express themselves. Prohibitions on say wearing a Santa Claus hat to a school dance, or bringing in cookies shaped like trees or red cup cakes are absurd.

 

But I do have concerns when you say it's about who controls our culture. It seems in this case and the ID case in the other thread that there is an element that wishes to impose their set of beliefs on others.

 

Have a safe and happy new year all.

 

SA

[CalicoPenn]

With the new year approaching, its time to recap the headlines of War on Christmas 2005:

 

The Elf Liberation Front (ELF) and the Radical Reindeer Brigade accused each other of being responsible for the chimney side bomb that left Santa Claus in a coma. Santa, who lost both legs and one arm in the bombing has a fifty percent chance to recover though a spokeswoman for the Claus family said that he would never be able to drive a sleigh again. None of Mr. Claus' children have any interest in taking over the family business and are expected to close down the North Pole compound, throwing thousands of elves out of work, and will liquidate the assets to pay for the extensive care Santa Claus will need if he wakes up from the coma. The Christan religious right has already announced plans to challenge any attempt to take Mr. Claus off life support; however, the hospital that Mr. Claus is currently housed is located in the Muslim dominated region of Abakhazistan and its unlikely that the courts or government will recognize any petition by the Christian right wing.

 

The ELF reported that the Claus family has already begun layoffs in the North Pole, starting with the stables, which are said to be eerily quiet. When asked what would become of the reindeer, the Claus family spokeswoman mumbled faintly to herself though the words German, Sausage, Makers, and Wisconsin were clearly heard. In a seemingly unrelated story, President Bush received a gift from the Governor of Wisconsin of Blitzen brand bratwurst that is easy to find in a deep fog due to its unique ability to glow red.

 

Meanwhile, the Liberace Museum in Las Vegas reported to local police that someone had circumvented the alarm, broke into the museum, and damaged hundreds of priceless candelabras. Nothing else was touched in the museum, though the director of the museum believes that the perpetrator may have tried on a few of Liberaces famous mink coats. Police are interviewing a man who recently wrote to the local newspaper a ranting screed about the prevalence of menorahs in the city of Las Vegas. The man, a well known bachelor about town that pickets the annual gay pride parade while wearing short-short cutoffs and little else, was recently cited by the city's building inspector for overloading the structural capacity of his roof with plastic Santa's, reindeer, candles, candy canes, and an strangely out of place 12 foot Easter Bunny in the middle of a nativity scene.

 

In Plano, Texas, residents woke up on Christmas morning to find that the color of Lake Lavon changed from its typical greenish blue to Kelly Green and Crimson Red. Townspeople gathered along shore to share what they thought was someones silent protest of the school district's alleged ban on red and green Christmas decorations, paper plates and napkins. Delight turned to horror when hundreds of bloated 2-foot humanoid bodies dressed in bleached white clothing began surfacing. Reports from the local coroner identified the bodies, which were viciously sliced open with serrated cutting tools, as belonging to a rare sub-species of humans known as Leprechauns and that the clothing they were wearing had originally been dyed green and that the dye leached into the water of the lake. Police are investigating the origins of the leprechauns and are working closely with federal authorities who believe that the leprechauns may have been slaughtered by the Elf Liberation Front.

 

Megachurches throughout the United States failed to open their doors on Christmas morning, which fell on a Sunday this year. The churches claimed that they needed to give a break to all the fine people who put on their annual Mega-Christmas pageants. Pope Benedict XVI, after issuing the Catholic Churches 1972nd annual call for Peace on Earth and Goodwill towards Men (which will be entered into the Guiness Book of World Records as the longest unrealized wish streak in the history of mankind), and not realizing that the microphone was still active, called the pastors of the mega-churches "wimps of the highest order" because "we have 73 year old priests celebrating Midnight Mass (copyright - Vatican) then opening the doors of the churches at 6:00 am the next day."

 

Finally, Walmart, Target, K-Mart, Sears, Macy's and other major retailers declared victory in the Christmas Wars, noting that people in the US were the "good little consumer lackeys" they had brainwashed to believe that the season is really meant for spending billions of dollars on tacky Christmas decorations and on worthless junk to wrap and put under no longer living trees. The CEO of Retail,Inc., a wholly owned subsidiary of Murder, Inc., is already planning next year's "war on Christmas" diversion and told a trade journal that the Bill O'Reilly diversionary campaign would look like an amateur production of "Our Town" when next year's campaign starts. He once again denied reports that payments to journalists, commentators and "religious" leaders were made in the campaign though in public filings, a suspiciously large expense of 527 million dollars for Fruitcakes has raised the interest of some legislators. When asked if he would investigate the odd expense, the Attorney General of the United States said "Why would we do that? $527 million dollars doesn't seem to be out of line for fruitcake purchases". In 2004, annual fruitcake purchases were reported to account for no more than 37 thousand dollars in spending for the entire year. When asked about the low dollar amounts in 2004, the fruitcake marketing board said it was typical for fruitcake sales and that the numbers are always low because of annual fruitcake re-gifting.

 

Now can we finally end the so-called War on Christmas? At least for another year?

 

CalicoPenn

[Bobanon]

The idea there was/is war on xmas is laughable at best. Why is it that a certain segment of the xtian population feel there is. Of course Faux News is responsible for such nonsense. All television news uses sensationalizes stories, mostly nonsense or of no importance, (Natalie Halloway or the Peterson's for example). And Faux News is the absolute worst.

 

If there really was a concerted war on xmas every retail business organization in America would be screaming bloody murder.

 

These senstational stories like the war on xmas are nothing more than smoke and mirrors to keep the public scrambling and their attention averted from the real stories that should have been reported. Again Faux News is the master in spending hours worrying about the disappearance of Natalie Holloway, or some other unimportant crisis.

 

I find it funny that xtains are so offended by the phrase Happy Holiday. Besides, Jesus, if he really existed was born in the early spring, and not on Dec. 25. The early church used the idea of Jesus's birth on Dec. 25 to usurp a pagan holiday that was still celebrated in Rome. And the same is true for the Easter Holiday. Easter usurped the old Estara holiday that was practiced in Northern Europe by the Germanic and Celtic civilizations. And too, many of the early saints were old pagan gods that were incorporated into the new religion in order to make it more palatable, and more readily adopted. I have found that very few xtians know the history of their own religion.

 

The war on xmas is utter nonsense. My question is why do conservative xtians feel this need to be persecuted?

[FScouter]

"My question is why do conservative xtians feel this need to be persecuted?"

 

Your purpose in using the term "xtians" is ???

[Bobanon]

Xtain is an abbreviation of Christian, and comes from the Greek. X" resembles the Greek letter Χ (Chi), the first letter of "Christ" in Greek. The original bible was translated from Aramaic into Greek. Presbyterian and Episcopalian seminaries require Greek as a language course for seminarians inorder that they may go back to the original writings of the bible instead of subsiquent translations.

 

 

It is not derogartory, and comes for Christian history. X for Christos.

[Kudu]

My question is why do conservative xtians feel this need to be persecuted?

 

Obviously because we lost the war on Saint Patrick and Saint Valentine :-/

 

Kudu