war on Christmas

[OldGreyEagle]

Originally November 11 was called Armastice Day to mark the end of WWI (the big one). Over the years, that holiday was changed to Veterans Day and today celebrates all Veterans (as well they should be celebrated) I hope no one tries to bring down the honoring of all Veterans by pointing out the original intent was to honor WWI vets only.

 

The word "gay" has changed, it wasnt that long ago being a gay fellow just meant you were happy and carefree. Today it means something else and those that point out that "gay" didnt always mean "Gay" would be asked why that tidbid was relevant?

 

Remember the old song:

School days, school days

Good old-fashioned rule days.

Readin'

Ritin'

and Rithmetic

All taught to the tune

of a hickory stick ...

 

Perhaps some lament the end of school teacher administred corporal punishement, but its day is past and we can talk about the past, but it doesnt change the present.

 

Things change, whether its the name and intent of holidays, the meaning of a word, or policies of a social institution, in any case sometimes we just have to move on

[John-in-KC]

Several comments:

 

1) Seems to me several Scouters here have forgotten "A Scout is friendly." To use yoda-speak "Civil and mature discourse we do not have."

 

2) Many of us who are Christians need to look carefully at the traditions of Christmas, to understand their appropriation by the Church in the 1st three centuries Anni Domini. Many of them, including the WHEN of Christmas (Saturnalia), are lifts from multi-theistic Roman traditions. Others come from germanic pagan traditions.

 

3) May I remind several here of Luke 6:22-23. If having to deal with petty American governments who call it "end of term party," airlines who say "Happy Holiday" even on Christmas Day (I flew yesterday) and the ACLU who fights each and every Nativity scene on the town square, then we have it awfully good. Remember our Christian brothers and sisters who are martyred even now in China and various places in Africa for their profession of the Christ-child as Savior of the Nations.

 

4) As far as what is in a man's heart, God tells us again and again in Scripture we all face His Judgment, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"(Romans 3:23). The blessing the Christian has is that Christ stands for him and declares our name written in the book of Life (Revelation 20). I'll also point folks to Ephesians 2:8-9, lest we try to claim our earthly works gain us His Kingdom.

 

The world can continue to act in its idiotic way, denying the Christ-child (which is what in effect is happening). As for me, the Christ child is born, next we remember His earthly ministry (Epiphany season), then we take Him to the Cross (Lent), and then comes the Holy Weekend of Maundy Thursday, God's Friday, and Easter. Finally, the story has to also have Ascension and Pentecost, that we place the Christ back in Heaven, and the era of Grace proceed.

 

The peace of the Lord be with us all. For my brother and sister Scouters outside Christendom, my respect for your religion (A Scout is Reverent, and BP told us to respect each others Faith) does not mean I embrace your religion. May you act in faith according to the tenets of your faith, and may God preserve the righteous.

 

John

A Good Old Owl

[Kudu]

airlines who say "Happy Holiday" even on Christmas Day (I flew yesterday)

 

Holiday means "Holy Day" which would include Hanukkah, which started yesterday, didn't it? It is also Saturnalia, and a few other holy days.

 

Why should the airline recognize only one particular holy day?

 

Kudu

[BrentAllen]

Cliff/Kudu,

So that was your house decorated with the bound and hanging Santa this year. Nice. Must be real popular with the neighborhood kids. Sorry you have such a twisted notion of Christmas.

With 564 websites, all with the exact same language on the legend of the poinsettia, it sounds like that is a pretty popular and well excepted version of the Christmas plant. How many websites can you find, all with the exact same language, that explain the Aztec history?

Case closed.

Why should the airlines say "Merry Christmas" on December 25th? For the same reason the federal government and most businesses are closed today. Can you figure that one out, or do I need to explain further?

Merry Christmas!

 

[Kudu]

Why should the airlines say "Merry Christmas" on December 25th? For the same reason the federal government and most businesses are closed today. Can you figure that one out, or do I need to explain further?

 

I guess you need to explain further :-/

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Hi all,

 

I would like to thank John-in-KC for his points 1 through 3, which put the whole issue nicely into perspective.

 

Here in the US, we do have the ability to freely and safely practice our various faiths. While some of us may debate the "freely" part - in comparison to Red China, parts of Africa & many other places, "freely" is an accurate description.

 

As for the "War on Christmas", I am forced to alter my position and acknowledge that such a war does exist.

 

There are extremists who would homogenize the holidays into a secular "end of year" celebration - ridiculously manifested by such petty nonsense as removing poinsettas and banning red & green decor. But certainly manifested in other, more serious ways as well.

 

But extremism breeds extremism. There are plenty of people who completely disregard the fact that there are holidays other than Christmas occurring at this time of year. How much of the "War on Christmas" is a reaction to those who won't yield on the preferential, semi-exclusive status of Christmas? For example BrentAllen's rhetorical question, "Why should the airlines say "Merry Christmas" on December 25th? ... do I need to explain further?" It pretty much disregards the fact that some airline employees and passengers might celebrate something other than Christmas.

 

My wish for this holiday season is that our nation finds a way for all our traditions to be expressed and respected. The alternative may very well be that the liberals & ACLU win, and America ends up celebrating "Happy Plain Vanilla Meaningless End of Year Time"

 

Best wishes to all.

NC

 

 

[BrentAllen]

My point about the airline employees saying Merry Christmas is not that they should be forced to, but that they should be free to do so, if they wish. I took the previous comment to insinuate the employees were instructed to say Happy Holidays instead, as employees are reportedly instructed to do at other companies, such as Target.

For those companies and individuals who need a little further explanation about Christmas in this country, please note there is only one federal holiday for a religious date - Christmas. Also, note that 70 - 80% of the residents of this country describe themselves as Christian. An even larger percentage of the population celebrates Christmas. Yes, Hanukkah also started on 12/25 this year - the first of 8 days of that celebration. Do the airline employees wish the passengers Happy Thanksgiving, which is also a federal holiday? How about Happy New Year or Happy Fourth of July? So whether as a religious or secular holiday greeting, airline employees should be free to wish their passengers a Merry Christmas. Same with Target or any other PC-concerned company.

[John-in-KC]

MY POINT, good Sir, is:

 

It should be the employee's personal decision on what holiday greeting he chooses, not the mandate of a "corporate communications" office. Sadly, there are firms who mandated their employees say something generic, impersonal, and perceived "politically correct" other than "Merry Christmas" or "Happy Chanukah" (sorry if I mis-spelled that?).

 

Merry Christmas, Day 2

(Zweiten Christmas auf Deutsch)

(Boxing Day in the British Tradition)

 

John

 

 

 

 

[Kudu]

There are extremists who would homogenize the holidays into a secular "end of year" celebration

 

The whole reason that Christians chose December 25th is that it was the solstice, which used to mark the end of the calendar year. The holidays/holy days have always been an "end of year" celebration.

 

- ridiculously manifested by such petty nonsense as removing poinsettias and banning red & green decor.

 

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence!

 

This sounds suspiciously similar to the O'Reilly Factor story about a Texas school district that told students they couldn't wear red and green because they were Christmas colors.

 

It was an urban legend.

 

Face it, Christian extremists get better publicity when the story is about banning pagan symbols.

[BrentAllen]

Cliff/Kudu,

Urban Legend, say you? Sorry, but you spend too much time reading lefty blogs. The Plano schools did not allow green and red plates and napkins, and icing on cupcakes. Bill O'Reilly mispoke when he said the policy extended to clothing - he was wrong about that, just as you are wrong about the rest of the ban being urban legend.

From here in Dunwoody, how much evidence do you want? The school, Austin Elementary, was our Chartered Organization until this month, when I (Cubmaster) had to move it the Austin PTA (thanks, ACLU). My wife, who happens to be the COR, is also a Third Grade teacher there. I have two kids who attend the school.

I could be a wise acre and claim our kids aren't allowed to wear red and green clothing to school before "winter break", which is absolutely true, but that is because those colors aren't part of the school uniform. The rest of the story is true, and not some urban legend.

Still waiting for the numbers on those Aztec webpages.

I'm glad you now understand the "Merry Christmas" greeting and federal holidays issue.

I'm curious - are you also nostalgic for the human sacrifices and slavery of Saturnalia?

[GernBlansten]

I like poinsettias, I think they are cheerful and bright when all is cold and snowy.

This whole uproar over stores and schools banning Christmas symbols makes me think of a quote from a great, although drug addled, commentator. "Its the triumph of symbolism over substance." People seem to get too wrapped up in the symbolism of Christmas and forget the substance of it.

[BrentAllen]

Gern,

Could it be the anti-religion, anti-Christian liberals want to get rid of the symbolism first, so the substance will be forgotten later?

[GernBlansten]

And how would those malevolent soles accomplish even the slightest diminishment of the substance of religion from the hearts and minds of the followers? My point is religion is so ingrained into the lives of Americans, no act of another will diminish or eliminate its presence and significance in society. The symbolism is nice but not necessary for religion to flourish. Unless of course, you think your religion is based on a weak foundation and can be demolished with the slightest touch. Not my view. Much ado about nothing, me thinks.

[ronvo]

Merry Christmas Fellow Christian Scouters and Season's Greetings to All!

 

I started this thread because I was miffed that the guy who "declared war on Christmas" used an old BSA background for his "declaration".

 

This thread has evolved into another he said/he said religious debate which has little hope of ending.

 

I admit to having ignited this fire and adding some fuel to it.

 

I would now ask that we close this thread and move forward, respecting each others differences in religion and helping each other in our common love for Scouting.

 

Look for a new thread in Open Discussion on New Year's Resolutions!

 

Peace to all this Holiday Season.

 

Your brother in Scouting,

ron

(This message has been edited by ronvo)

[SR540Beaver]

Brent,

 

Christmas became a secular and commercialized holiday long before I was born almost 50 years ago. The true meaning of Christmas was taken out of Christmas long before the current "war on Christmas". Heck, Henry Ford claimed there was a war on Christmas in the early 1920's. Back then he blamed the Jews for it.

 

Does it really matter if stores say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas? I remember this happening when I was a kid some 40 years or more ago. People pop a gasket over the school break being called a Winter Break. So what? Does that interfere with celebrating the birth of Christ for Christians? If so, I can't see how. It has never stopped me. Does having a Holiday party instead of a Christmas party at school interfere with celebrating the birth of Christ for Christians? If so, I can't see how. My experience is that kids like a party no matter what it is called. If it were a "Christmas" party, it would most likely revolve around the secular trappings of Christmas with a visit from Santa and singing songs like Rudolph the Red-nosed Raindeer instead of reading passages from the book of Luke and singing Silent Night and other hymns.

 

Actually, if there were to be a real war on Christmas, it should be the Christians trying to take the commercialization and secularization out of Christmas. Getting bent out of shape for a business saying Happy Holidays to appeal to the broadest range of customers is really silly in a capitalist society. It is a business decision, not an organized movement by the godless liberal hordes that Fox, O'Reilly, Hannity and Gibson want to make it out to be. They are looking to sell books and garner ratings. They complain about it not being covered by the rest of the media.....hello, it isn't a story. Don't be snookered by these guys. They may say the are "looking out for you", but they are really looking out for their pocketbooks.

 

Let me close with a question for you. If you were to lose your marriage license in a flood or fire and/or lose your wedding ring, would your marriage lose meaning and would you all of a sudden fall out of love with your wife? Why should a school calling the break a Winter Break or a store saying Happy Holidays be taking anything away from you Christmas celebration? You seem to be a passionate man, I find it hard to belive that you would hang your beliefs on superficial symbols. In the final analysis, those things don't amount to a hill of beans. Your faith and what you believe and teach your children do. If Christmas is really under attack like Ford also believed almost 100 years ago, I have a feeling it will continue to weather the storm as always.