war on Christmas

[evmori]

Perhaps I am alone in my thinking, but Jesus does not seem to be saying, Say, do, and believe as you please, I will still respect you.

 

Rooster you aren't alone. I agree 100%.

 

Not everyone is gets into heaven! Those that don't proclaim Jesus as their Lord & Savior & repent from their sins are , I'm afraid, left out.

 

SR540Beaver,

Right on the money! Blessings brother.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

[DanKroh]

Rooster, so "peace on Earth, good will toward men" is NOT an appropriate sentiment of the Christmas season?

 

I just want to be sure, so as not to offend.

 

SR540Beaver, I agree with you in principle, as long as respecting my "right to believe" also means that my beliefs will not be publically mocked or belittled, and that I won't be told I'm going to the Christian's hot place because of my beliefs.

 

For example: "I respect your right to worship the Devil himself and to condemn your soul to eternal suffering because of it" Nah, that kind of respect doesn't work for me, either.... (Not that I've gotten that on this forum; at least, not as blatantly as that).

 

And Ed, I, for one, can't say I'll feel left out. Never been a big fan of restricted membership policies.

[evmori]

Rooster, so "peace on Earth, good will toward men" is NOT an appropriate sentiment of the Christmas season?

 

I just want to be sure, so as not to offend.

 

Nope that is an appropriate sentiment.

 

SR540Beaver, I agree with you in principle, as long as respecting my "right to believe" also means that my beliefs will not be publically mocked or belittled, and that I won't be told I'm going to the Christian's hot place because of my beliefs.

 

For example: "I respect your right to worship the Devil himself and to condemn your soul to eternal suffering because of it" Nah, that kind of respect doesn't work for me, either.... (Not that I've gotten that on this forum; at least, not as blatantly as that).

 

Respecting you right to your beliefs and condoning them are two different things.

 

And Ed, I, for one, can't say I'll feel left out. Never been a big fan of restricted membership policies.

 

Sorry we won't be in the same place for eternity.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

A blessed Christmas to all

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

"Never been a big fan of restricted membership policies."

 

And therein, Dan, lies the problem. Many of the religions, especially the more conservative ones, tend to believe that unless you believe what they believe, you can't get into the pearly gates. There's a certain "oneupsmanship" in place in some cases, ie, "my religion is better than your religion". The thing is, nobody really knows which, if any, religion, is the "right" one. It's all a matter of belief; no science involved here. And that is fine in my book, as long as people don't come along berating my belief system because their's is somehow "better". Unfortunately, there's an awful lot of that going on these days as our country becomes more and more divided along religious lines, as well as political lines.

 

As far as what Jesus "said", people need to be really careful there. There are some very strongly held beliefs that hinge on the exact meaning of a word here and a word there in the Scriptures. Translations of ancient languages is not always an exact science; there's the meaning of the word, and it's meaning in the context of the text, and in the context of the time. The Bible itself is a selection of ancient writings, not a thorough record. Pick one phrase, and you've got the need for men to love and respect each other, pick another and you've got slavery.

[gwd-scouter]

I have hesitated to step into this discussion mainly because I have so many people praying for me already for being raised a Catholic, but also asking many questions about religion in general.

 

But here's my question. If, according to Christians, you cannot get into Heaven if you have not accepted Jesus as your personal savior, Hell must be one very crowded place. Besides all those nonChristians out there, where did all the people go from the millenia before Christianity?

[Kudu]

Besides all those nonChristians out there, where did all the people go from the millennia before Christianity?

 

Dante took a stab at answering your question in his trilogy, but this complex theological issue is best explained on "South Park."

 

If you don't subscribe to cable, then you will either have to rent the DVDs or suffer eternal damnation.

 

Kudu

[Venividi]

This discussion has taken an interesting turn that brought back an old memory. I was raised Lutheran. Back in the early 1970's our high school youth group had raised some money and was looking for a worthy cause to help needy children to which we could donate that money. We chose Catholic Charities (or something like that). Our elderly pastor did not allow it. He went off on a rant on Catholics and how their beliefs were wrong and they would end up in that other place. I found out that was a common view between Lutherans and Catholics back when he had been young.

 

Times change, and peoples beliefs change along with them. I personally am not aware of anyone that takes such a view today (between Lutherans & Catholics), but a few probably still exist. I suspect that now that there are so many non-christian faiths in the US, the differences between christian denominations seems minor by comparison. Nothing stops family members from bickering among themselves as quickly as having a common cause to fight. I think "war on Chrismas" has been positioned as that cause.

 

[SemperParatus]

gwd,

We are all spiritual beings having but a brief human experience. What makes you think that our God of second chances would not have provided for those brothers and sisters that have preceded us through the ages with the opportunity to accept Jesus as savior?

 

"He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it. There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe."

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[gwd-scouter]

Hey Semper - I agree we are all spiritual beings. I was merely asking a question, so your words "what makes you believe" was a bit strong. Then again, it is impossible to get someone's nuanced meaning from reading words rather than being able to see them speak. So, if you didn't intent to deride me, I apoligize for thinking so.

 

And, actually, part of your post and several others I've read hit closer to the mark of how I feel about this constant debate over Christianity, going to Heaven or Hell, and especially being told to my face that I'm going to hell because I don't subscribe to someone else's idea of faith. While I admit that I have not "accepted Jesus as my personal savior," I strongly believe that God is God, the God of second chances, regardless of your particular brand of religion or faith.

 

I wonder -- why does anyone think that one of the hundreds (probably thousands) of religions out there is actually the "right" one -- the belief system that God intended? I suppose the Aztecs thought they were right. How about other ancient societies? We think now "how ridiculous" when we read about the Roman and Greek Gods and Goddesses. But, they probably felt as strongly then that they were right as Christians, Hindus, Muslims, Jews, etc. feel today.

 

Maybe we just aren't intelligent enough yet to figure it all out. Maybe in a thousand years we will be.

 

By posting this message I am not in any way arguing the merits of anyone else's belief or nonbelief, just thought I'd add to the mix.

[SemperParatus]

gwd,

No derision intended...just another case of words getting in the way.

 

I will freely admit that I have not studied all of the religions of the world, past and/or present. To be honest, I haven't studied any others except for some courses I took during college.

 

In my mind, studying religions to try and figure out which is 'right' or 'makes sense' or 'works for me' is an unnecessary intellectual pursuit, that will only leave you grasping for more answers. I am a Christ follower for one primary reason...He was dead and buried and then He was alive again, a fact that was witnessed by thousands of people around Jerusalem some two thousand years ago. These eyewitnesses threw away centuries of cherished religious beliefs and traditions to follow Him, because they saw that which cannot be. They were persecuted and killed because they could not deny that which they knew to be true. Some may choose to pass it all off as a fictional story, a hoax, a misquote...yet when it is combined with the centuries of prophecies of Jesus' coming and his one-of-a-kind DNA match to those prophecies, His unworldly teachings and miracles, His own well-documented claims about Himself, and the personal sense that their is something beyond this world that is more beautiful and true, His story simply appears irrefutably true to me.

 

 

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[TheFourGuardians]

I'm with GW, I don't like the constant bickering of "my religion is right!"

 

If you can prove so, do it. If not, it's faith and nothing more. I know where my values lie and try to live by them. I don't convert people to my faith, whatever it may be(some unitarian type situation I'm sure) because it seems illogical that I tell them they will be burned for all eternity should they not accept it.

 

But enough about this, arguing religion is really not a good topic for anyone.

 

Live and let live(without any "I'm sorry we won't be spending eternity with each other" comments please. If you're going to tell someone they're going to Hell, either say it in that way and accept that you are saying that to the person or preferably, don't bother at all.) I don't care what you think of my beliefs so long as you keep it to yourself. It seems rather unscoutly to tell others, unless you honestly believe you are trying to save them, that they are damned to infinite pain and misery for not accepting your beliefs.

 

 

And I hope my language wasn't too strong, I generally never use such harsh language, but this seemed to be a case where it needed to be mentioned.

 

And I do not wish to offend anyone, but I felt I needed to be a touch blunt in this case.

 

[Rooster7]

Just to be clear

 

For those taking offense, true believers (a.k.a. Christians) do not condemn anyone.

 

In fact, our faith is rather simple. We claim to believe in the God of the Bible and embrace His Son, Jesus not only as Lord (great teacher and philosopher), but as Savior. If you have no reason to believe that you will be judged, then I suppose thats a good thing. However, my faith tells me that we (all of us) are in desperate need of a Savior that we must humbly bow down and accept the gift laid before us if we want to see God that gift being Jesus Christ and His work on the cross, an atoning sacrifice for all the sins of the world. No religion on Earth reconciles us to God. Most claim that we must go through some sort of a process and elevate ourselves. Jesus suffered on the cross so that we all could be elevated by his death and resurrection. All we need to do is to accept Him.

 

So, if you reject Jesus Christ, you reject His gift. If you know of a way to be reconciled to the God of the universe without this gift, then youre one up on me. However, if you do not know of another way, then do not be offended by my salvation. I know that I am a sinner that needs a Savior. I rejoice that God has given us this gift and gladly accept the covering of Christ. Is it such a curious thing that millions of believers cheerily greet whoever they meet this time of year with Merry Christmas?

 

If you must take offense at someone, than direct your disdain toward the source. I am merely a man who believes in Gods Word. Although, as someone who truly believes in the God of the Bible, I dont recommend that you do that either. But the point is - your hostility is truly misdirected for a number of significant reasons, but three definitely standout:

 

1) My faith is what I believe. Its not something I concocted (i.e. a members only club). The Holy Spirit tells me that Gods Word is true.

2) I do not judge whether or not someone will be condemned to Hell. Only God has the authority, knowledge, and power to judge people in that manner. Christians more than others recognize that fact (although theres always some who dont follow what they claim to know).

3) Believers do not know your fate. We can only communicate what the Bible tells us about faith and Gods judgment. However, some folks upon listening to believers speak and reading a Bible, realize that they have reason to be concerned.

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

I dunno, Rooster, those folks on the 700 Club ("true believers") seem to have quite a bit to say about who's going to hell and who's not. Maybe they've got an extra chapter in their Bible that you didn't get or something

[Rooster7]

I dont watch the 700 Club, or at least not as a planned part of my week. I have seen it occasionally, but I couldnt even tell you if theyre still on the air. However, Id be willing to bet that most of what some folks perceive as judgment from the presenters of that broadcast is really just the message of the Bible being proclaimed. That is, theyre probably not expanding on the Gods Word, just relaying it to others as they know it. People tend to feel like they are being judged when they realize a few truths such as - their own sinfulness and Gods righteousness.

[OldGreyEagle]

I am not so sure I would hold up the 700 Club as the spokesman for contemporary Christian thought any more than I would hold up the thoughts of all scouters are represented on this forum or that either Nancy Pelosi OR George W Bush speaks for all Americans