Ignoring Policy Makes It OK

[Prairie_Scouter]

Sounds to me like the problem is that BSA has painted the term "agnostic" with too broad of a brush. Some agnostics do believe in a higher power, but don't believe in a particular god. Some don't believe in either, which I suppose would actually make them athiests. I would think that if someone has an understanding of the broadness of the terminology, they'd avoid using it in conversations with a Scout, should the issue come up. Better to ask whether a Scout believes in a higher power than ask if they're agnostic, since they might not really understand the term.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

Yes Merlyn I know 12/25 isn't Christs birthday

 

Odd you would refer to it as "Christs birthday", then.

 

And, of course, I have no problem taking days off, while YOUR religion prohibits you from participating in other religions' celebrations, yet you do. "Christmas" is from pagan holiday celebrations. I'd assume you don't keep the sabbath, either (which is Saturn's Day).

 

Personally, I think all religious holidays should be taken as floating holidays, for the obvious reason that not everyone celebrates the same religious holidays. But there I go, letting people decide for themselves, instead of assigning religious holidays, as you seem to like.

 

Decorating a tree is in violation of the bible? Please site chapter & verse!

 

Jeremiah 10:2-4

 

And if an agnostic states he believes in God he can become a BSA member!

 

Better get the BSA legal website to change, then; according to them, agnostics can't be members.

[acco40]

Merlyn,

 

Don't want to get in the middle of your joust with Ed but according to the Bible (King Acco Version):

 

Christmas tree as decoration - OKAY

Christmas tree as an idol to worship - Big no-no

 

In my warped sense of humor this all reminds me of my favorite Playboy cartoon. Roman Centurions are nailing Santa Claus to a cross. The caption is Santa declaring, "Hey, you got the wrong guy!"(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Trevorum]

Merlyn said "Of COURSE lying isn't always wrong - insert the standard "nazis ask you about Anne Frank's location while she's hiding in your attic" question here."

 

I disagree. I think lying is ALWAYS wrong.

 

Sometimes however, one must choose between two evils. In Merlyn's example, lying is clearly the lesser wrong. This may be seen as splitting hairs, but I think it's an important principle: LYING IS ALWAYS WRONG.

 

 

[dan]

ScoutNdad

Before you respond again, please find where BSA says some exceptions are made for agnostics.

Just because you typed in does not make it true, The link I provided, I could not find anything that says some agnostic, I appreciate you showing me where that is.

[acco40]

Trevorum, obviously you have never been married.

[Proud Eagle]

I don't really know quite what holidays have to do with this... but I guess if we can use the issue to beat someone we don't like over the head with it doesn't really matter if it makes any sense or not. (Ed my in fact have a point, but I have not yet seen evidence of it. Or perahps this has something to do with something on some other thread I did not read. In any case, simply because I have not seen evidence of Ed having a point as to the Christmas holiday thing, I don't doubt that he could in fact have one.)

 

As to charter organizations or leaders lying to the BSA, or anyone else, about following or violating BSA policy, I think that is wrong. When public schools chartered units while knowing they could not in fact enforce all of BSA's policies that was wrong. Those schools lied to BSA if they really thought that. (Alternatively they may have interpreted the Constitution in a way that seems at the moment to be different from the courts. In that case they did nothing morally wrong, they simply were incorrect from a legal point of view. Not a good thing, but not a terrible evil either.) In the same way it is wrong for any group to lie to BSA by claiming they will follow its policies when in fact they have no intention of doing so. (This becomes slightly more complicated if they only figured out the policy after agreeing to follow it. In that case the right thing to do is to stop carrying out the Scouting program once it is determined it conflicts with some other obligation or belief.)

 

As to the issue of BSA issuing charters to those it knows can not maintain their part of the agreement, that is simply foolishness. Why the BSA would ever do that I have no idea. It should not be done. It is not in fact dishonest in the since of it being a lie, but it could be construed as misleading or deceptive. The greater burden is placed on the party that agreed to do something they could not. However, the BSA still has some responsibility if the BSA in fact knew of the problem at the time of entering into a charter agreement. Though the official executing the charter agreement on the part of the BSA would also have to be aware, since it is hard to hold an individual responsible based on knowledge held by a corporate body. (On the other hand the BSA is not under any obligation to determine if a group if fully capable of keeping their part of the bargain. That is the obligation of the chartering organization.)

 

Finally, the agnostic thing makes even less since than what Ed said about a certain holiday celibrated on the 25th day of December.

 

Where can I find the rules, regulations, and membership policies tha prohibit all agnostics from joining BSA? I know of no document that has the force of official policy that states that. Something on a website, even an official one, is not necessarily an official statement of policy. Even if it was, the item being referenced does not in fact state what many think it does. It could be inferred from it, but it certainly does not state it in anything approaching a direct or absolute fashion.

[evmori]

Jeremiah 10:2-4

2 This is what the LORD says:

"Do not learn the ways of the nations

or be terrified by signs in the sky,

though the nations are terrified by them.

 

3 For the customs of the peoples are worthless;

they cut a tree out of the forest,

and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.

 

4 They adorn it with silver and gold;

they fasten it with hammer and nails

so it will not totter.

 

I see nothing prohibiting a Christian from having a Christmas tree! And read on!

 

Why do we have a decorated Christmas Tree? In the 7th century a monk from Crediton, Devonshire, went to Germany to teach the Word of God. He did many good works there, and spent much time in Thuringia, an area which was to become the cradle of the Christmas Decoration Industry.

 

Legend has it that he used the triangular shape of the Fir Tree to describe the Holy Trinity of God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The converted people began to revere the Fir tree as God's Tree, as they had previously revered the Oak. By the 12th century it was being hung, upside-down, from ceilings at Christmastime in Central Europe, as a symbol of Christianity.

 

My religion doesn't prohibit me from participating in other religions celebrations. And I attend church almost every Sunday. I also read my bible daily & have prayer time during the week. All of which are encouraged by many denominations (Christian & non-Christian). And Christmas means "Christ's Festival".

 

Proud Eagle,

My point of bringing Christmas into this was to show that, Merlyn, as an atheist, still takes the day off. And that Christmas is a national holiday.

 

dan,

There is nothing in any BSA publication that states agnostics are not allowed to be members of the BSA. If they meet the membership requirements, why would they be kept out? An agnostic and an atheist are different. Do some research. You might learn something.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

Acco, 20 years next August.

 

Often it's not the message itself that needs to be changed, it just needs some context ,,,

[Scoutndad]

dan,

The BSA is a private club that has the constitutional right (your citing) to exclude those members that do not meet its standards. They do indeed have the right to exclude those that do not believe in God and although there are case citings for the exclusion of agnostics, these agnositcs were atheistic agnostics (refusing to pray or acknowledging God) or just plain athiestic.

There is no case law that shows where a theistic agnostic has been excluding from the BSA for not doing their duty to God.

Why? For the simple fact that by definition alone, they believe in God but they can not comprehend the magnitude of that belief and because of this, they can still do their duty to God and be reverent.

 

I am a bit sensitive to the nature of this posting and have done quite a bit of investigation, but my point and the question at hand is the ignorace of upholding policy and lying...no need to dwell on semantics when it is a broad scope question.

 

Do you believe lying and/or ignoring a known policy is right?

 

I guess I would agree with Trevorum...lying is always wrong. Does that mean that I don't do it...nope, unfortunately I try to refrain from lying at all but it is inevitable in some cases.

 

[Hunt]

Well, I personally don't think it was wrong for people to lie to the Nazis about the whereabouts of hidden Jews. But that simply has no comparison to lying so you can belong to a voluntary club whose membership requirements you don't meet. The fact is that once you take away the government sponsorship element, critics of BSA have no really good argument as to why a group of religious people shouldn't form a club that is restricted to religious people. That's why Merlyn's arguments are somewhat incoherent in this thread.

[packsaddle]

I liked the other thread (Agnostic Scout) much better. I don't understand why it was closed. It hadn't gotten out of hand. There were actually some interesting things being written. And this one was almost destined (apologies to my fellow Presbyterians ) to become an Ed/Merlyn thing. And it has.

 

Trevorum, I agree with what you said about deception. However, (and in further agreement) in the tradition of Jeff Foxworthy, when the wife asks, "...do you think my butt is fat?", this is a moment of 'truth' for anyone about to answer. That question was asked for a reason and the reason wasn't because the asker doesn't know the answer. I admit that I have a lot to learn about the way we interact, but I have learned that sometimes 'deception' is it the better part of valor. Or as the Talosians might say, "They have their illusions and you have yours. May yours be as pleasant.";)

[Prairie_Scouter]

I'm not sure exactly where it says that BSA is a "religious club", if that's what you were inferring. B-P certainly recognized a higher power in his writings, but I don't think he saw that as the driving force behind what he was trying to accomplish. Seems to me that his view was more that he was simply trying to teach character, using the outdoors as the tool.

 

Now, there are certainly some segments of BSA that have moved their units in the direction of being more of a "religious club". LDS units, for example, vary, it seems, quite a bit from the BSA norm in how they do things. Other units have a significantly less religious element to them. I, for one, didn't get the impression that I was joining a religious club when I got involved in Scouting.

[Scoutndad]

packsaddle,

you made my day with the obscure Trekkie reference and would still answer the Foxworthy question the same way regardless if it was a policy in my household or not...

 

I agree with you on the other thread and read it with great interest...

 

To all,

Have a Great (and safe) Thanksgiving!

[AvidSM]

Let's look at a policy that's often ignored - the one that says a boy does not need a uniform to be a boy scout.

 

I have heard many leaders says that they do not let a boy attend a Scoutmaster's conference or Board of Review unless they are in full uniform. This is clearly against BSA policy. But, most leaders I know would think it is OK - even though you may be delaying a boy's advancement because of it.

 

What makes this policy OK to ignore? Is it because we place more importance on the uniform at SMC's and BOR's? What leader would send a boy home from a regular meeting who is not in full uniform?

 

The boys comply to this unofficial policy, because they listen to us as adults. They trust that what we say is true and often don't question us. They have no reason to thumb through the Scoutmaster's Handbook to confirm if we are following BSA's rules.

 

The fact that we are given this trust and that we break it when we ignore policy makes it not OK. There is no "BSA police" to give us a ticket when we stray from the rules. Our honor, our character and our reputation should prevent us.

 

Ignorance of policy is no excuse.