Ignoring Policy Makes It OK

[evmori]

I posted

 

"Just because there are some BSA units that ignore policy doesn't make it OK."

 

And Merlyn replied

 

Sure it does. I'm all in favor of BSA units ignoring the policy, and many do already. And, of course, the BSA dishonestly chartered units to public schools for decades, yet you manage to never see that as dishonest. This is just the opposite situation, where an organization deliberately intends to ignore the BSA's requirements.

 

Is it me or has Merlyn stating violating policy is just fine? If that's the case, where does one draw the line as to right and wrong?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Oh, violating the BSA's stupid policies are just fine with me, Ed.

 

Hey Ed, how many public schools do you think enforced the BSA's religious membership requirements? Ignoring the BSA's religious rules are legal, but for a public school to enforce them is illegal - a civil rights violation.

 

So which rule would you suggest a public school official ignore?

[dan]

evmori

You have stated that you will not tell a agnostic scout that he cannot be a member, even though the BSA states that they cannot.

I am assuming that the statements that are posted in that thread came from the BSA site. That stated an agnostic cannot be a scout.

If you can ignore policy why cannot other people?(This message has been edited by dan)

[Hunt]

Well, it appears that Merlyn thinks lying is OK, but discrimination is not OK.

But you can't have your cake and eat it too--if you want to get on your high horse about the "dishonesty" of BSA, you can hardly praise other people for lying.

Plus, Merlyn's beating a dead horse when he talks about the public schools--BSA already made the decision to move its charters out of the schools.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Of COURSE lying isn't always wrong - insert the standard "nazis ask you about Anne Frank's location while she's hiding in your attic" question here.

 

And the BSA didn't decide to move charters out of public schools, they were forced to, because the BSA wasn't honest enough to do that on their own.

 

I would actually prefer all of the BSA units that refuse to follow the BSA's discriminatory policies inform the BSA of that decision, but I'm sure they're all afraid of losing their charter, and it's easier to just lie to the BSA. I don't consider lying to the BSA under such circumstances to be very unethical, and I consider following the BSA's policies to be more unethical, so it's more a choice of doing what is less unethical.

[evmori]

Merlyn,

So it's OK to ignore rules & laws. Where do you draw the line? Do you take Christmas off? Why? If you had any principles at all you wouldn't.

 

dan,

The BSA doesn't state an agnostic can't be a member! If you are referring to the company line of an answer regarding the DRP, it doesn't state agnostics can't be members.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

 

How is taking Xmas off ignoring a "rule"?

 

And the BSA's official legal website says that agnostics can't be members, so Ed, you've been violating BSA policy.

 

Of course, since the BSA still has 'unwritten rules', it's hardly surprising that they get ignored.

[dan]

evmori

From the website http://www.bsalegal.org/faqs-113.htm

 

Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?

 

A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.

 

I asked you this question, because it seemed from all of your posts that you followed the rules of the BSA, except for this one, and it surprised me.

[evmori]

Q. What allows the Boy Scouts of America to exclude atheists and agnostics from membership?

 

A. The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.

 

The answer doesn't answer the question! It is a company line! If you knew anything about agnostics you would understand my point. There are agnostics who believe in a higher power they just have a lot of questions! Remember, the requirement is to believe in God. Not my God. And not your God, dan (had to exclude Merlyn since he is an atheist). Their God. Their higher power. Since atheists don't believe in God, they can't become members. Sorry Merlyn.

 

So, Merlyn, you do take Christs birthday off even though you don't believe He was God! What else do you do that is contradictory?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[dan]

evmori

You are doing the same thing that you are accusing Merlyn of doing. Defining which rules to ignore by ones own beliefs.

What I do or do not know about agnostics has nothing to do with it.

The BSA says agnostics cannot be members.

If I do the same thing that you are doing, If I know that a member is an atheist and if I think that is okay I can use my own standards and not the BSA's.

[evmori]

dan,

Where in this paragraph

 

The Boy Scouts of America is a private membership group. As with any private organization, Boy Scouts retains the constitutional right to establish and maintain standards for membership. Anyone who supports the values of Scouting and meets these standards is welcome to join the organization.

 

does it state agnostics can't be members or don't meet the membership requirements?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed wrote:

So, Merlyn, you do take Christs birthday off even though you don't believe He was God!

 

What? You think December 25th was Jesus' birthday?!

 

I thought everyone knew that date was stolen from other religions. All the dates are due to the winter solstice, when days stop getting shorter and start getting longer again. It has nothing to do with your religion, Ed. By the way, do you decorate a tree, in violation of the bible?

 

Now, in my particular case, the building would be locked, so I wouldn't be able to work in any case.

 

And Ed, there are plenty of agnostics who don't believe in any gods - you really need to ask any particular agnostic directly, since the term isn't used very precisely. Of course, to be certain, you need to ask Buddhists, Jews, and other people (who may or may not follow a religion) directly too, since you can be a Buddhist or a Jew and not believe in any gods, either.

 

But, like I said, a lot of people ignore the BSA's dumber rules, and it's easy to see why.

[evmori]

Yes Merlyn I know 12/25 isn't Christs birthday. But it is the day His birthday is celebrated. And it's also a national holiday. So what are you doing to end this practice? Maybe you should get a key or figure out how to work off-site.

 

Decorating a tree is in violation of the bible? Please site chapter & verse!

 

And if an agnostic states he believes in God he can become a BSA member!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[dan]

Right here

 

meets these standards

 

I do not get it Ed the BSA has it spelled out in black and white that says an agnoitic cannot be a member, either follow the rules or not, but you are ignoring BSA policy. Same as Merlyn.

[Scoutndad]

dan,

before you respond again, please review agnosticism. BSA does not prohibit ALL agnostics, only those that do not believe in a diety. There is no flat prohibition no matter how many times you post that the BSA does not allow agnostics.

 

Interesting forum...just wish there was a point. Being hypocritical is part of the grand scheme...ignoring laws and rules sometimes occurs but then the intent needs to be investigated not the number of occurences. Not a right or wrong thing, more of a moral and ethical dilemma...

 

Please continue the sparring....