BSA Atlanta - "remaining issues"

[jkhny]

From: http://www.boyscoutsfortruth.com/

 

 

"There is apparently a serious effort underway to assess the condition of Atlanta's inner city scouting program. The rolls have been cleaned and procedures put in place to ensure that all enrollments will have the endorsement of a unit leader.

 

Two key questions remain:

 

1. The cleaning of the rolls begs a question - how many of these real registrations are legitimate "Operation First Class" members?

 

What is the standard for a "disadvantaged" scout? What is the standard for a "real scout program"? How many "disadvantaged scouts" are participating in a "real scout program"? That would be the real number.

 

2. The fallout from the fraudulent enrollment scheme is now slowly finding its way to the surface. Who will be held responsible and why?

 

Lower level African American employees have been asked to sign statements admitting fraud. Some have apparently signed but others have refused. Some have protested that they were required to fabricate the enrollment numbers by the very supervisors who are inducing them to sign the fraud statements.

 

This issue directly hits to the heart of the matter.

 

To what extent will this problem be contained as the work of lower level staff in Atlanta?

 

And to what extent will the higher level staff and the national Boy Scout organization accept responsibility?

 

This is a matter of integrity in Scouting and a likely concern to active volunteers everywhere. This problem is not limited to Atlanta. Why is it so widespread and will it be stopped?"

 

 

 

The issues cited are serious and raise questions about just how committed BSA is about being OPEN and TRANSPARENT about what happened here and what is being done to prevent it from occurring again. Why have those directly involved in raising these issues been EXCLUDED from the task force charged with "fixing" problems in Atlanta?

 

BSA has yet to directly answer charges that current enrollments are NOT the 5000 cited by BSA's audit (3400 "active") but less than 500.

 

The present effort seems less than complete and genuine and is leading others to ask "whitewash?"

 

[Bob White]

"There is apparently a serious effort underway to assess the condition of Atlanta's inner city scouting program."

 

That pretty much says it all.

[jkhny]

"Some have protested that they were required to fabricate the enrollment numbers by the very supervisors who are inducing them to sign the fraud statements.

 

This issue directly hits to the heart of the matter.

 

To what extent will this problem be contained as the work of lower level staff in Atlanta?

 

And to what extent will the higher level staff and the national Boy Scout organization accept responsibility?

 

This is a matter of integrity in Scouting and a likely concern to active volunteers everywhere. This problem is not limited to Atlanta. Why is it so widespread and will it be stopped?"

 

 

 

 

INTEGRITY - THAT is the HEART of the MATTER

 

One more cover-up or a REAL effort to fix things? A careful read - and further investigations of other reports makes clear what is happening here. Those close to the situation do NOT have great faith this is being handled WITH INTEGRITY.

 

The points noted are valid - who is "disadvantaged" and what are the REAL counts. CLEAR, transparent and open answers have NOT been provided.

 

BSA goes to great lengths to say "we're fixing things" but won't say "how" or what's being done or even what the parameters for measuring participation are. TRANSPARENCY and OPENNESS are needed if BSA really wants to make this "right". This is still murky and dark.

 

 

[eagle90]

jkhny, if you spent half the time delivering a quality Scouting program to your boys instead of finding fault with councils across the nation and bad mouthing the program from one end to the other, you would be much better off. Your attitude has got to roll downhill to your scouts. I pity them. If I were as unhappy as you are about everything going on around me, I would get out and find something else to do with my time.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Perhaps if BSA National did a better job of monitoring the organization and made it clear that ANY sort of unethical or illegal behavior would not be tolerated, folks like jkhny wouldn't feel the need to bring up these issues. jkhny isn't "finding fault", he is merely reporting fault that is already there and desparately in need of repair. Problems with membership figures have existed for decades; one has to wonder why BSA National hasn't yet found an effective means of auditing those numbers and establishing policies that permanently "cure" the problem. They may have made attempts at all of those things, but at this point, you'd have to conclude that their efforts haven't been effective.

 

Auditing isn't magic; it just requires solid checks and balances that are verified on a random basis to ensure authenticity. Effective operational procedures should play into the audit policies.

 

Using membership numbers as a component of a leader's performance evaluation just makes it too tempting to get creative with the numbers. BSA should consider de-coupling this from the performance measurement metrics. If they've considered this and rejected the idea, then it is incumbant upon them to make sure that the numbers, and the processes that create them, are absolutely rock solid. If there is a formal tie between membership numbers and performance, rather than an informal tie, ie, "x" growth in membership means "x%" increase in salary rather than it just being a component of the review, then cheating on these numbers could be interpreted as being not only unethical but fraudulent. Using concocted numbers as the basis for funding from outside organizations is most certainly fraudulent, and should lead to criminal prosecution as well as termination as an employee of BSA.

[scoutingagain]

Given multiple accounts of unethical and in some cases illegal activities on the part of the professional staff of scouting, I for one am glad to see a little outrage. If misbehaving youth in uniform reflect on the program and all of us, national publicity about professional BSA staff reflects on all of us as well.

 

Some of us care too much about the program to bury our heads in the sand and pretend everything just hunky dory.

 

SA

 

 

 

[jkhny]

"jkhny, if you spent half the time delivering a quality Scouting program to your boys instead of finding fault with councils across the nation and bad mouthing the program from one end to the other, you would be much better off. "

 

Actually our SE would LOVE for me to simply quit Scouting.....he was rather perturbed that one of my $1000 donations went directly to a TROOP instead of FOS (and that's only one of a few). LOCAL Scouters are rather happy I'm STILL involved, as are the kids.

 

But BSA would rather DRIVE good people OUT of Scouting than respond to their questions and criticisms. Look at the decline in adult volunteers in Scouting. BSA simply doesn't "get" it.

 

I'm more worried about BSA simply surviving.

 

It may not make it through another national level scandal. I may not have a Scouting program to participate in if all these issues hit the fan. But even if a single incident doesn't provide that "catalyst" - BSA is STILL FAILING.

 

NO MATTER WHAT you want to say or believe, BSA membership has been DECLINING at an accelerating and non-stop rate. NOTHING that current leadership has done is stopping that - if anything they have made the situation WORSE by an endless focus on numbers (resulting in further fraud) instead of determining what is wrong and FIXING it.

 

THAT applies to MY local Council - which a limited tenure "professional" is trashing - driving out voluntreers with decades of service and lying about "numbers" AND to National.

[Prairie_Scouter]

"If I were as unhappy as you are about everything going on around me, I would get out and find something else to do with my time".

 

I remember this same mentality during the Vietnam War. "America, love it or leave it".

 

Blind allegiance is never a good idea.

 

As strange as it may seem, it IS possible to be in overall support of a country, or organzation, and yet see fault with it that one might want to try to fix. Bringing up those issues shouldn't make someone "the enemy". We should be thankful that such people exist to bring such problems to light. If BSA's policies and actions can't survive the light of day, then something is wrong with BSA. An organization like BSA lives on it's reputation, and the trust that it brings. Damage that trust, and the organization crumbles.

 

This really isn't a matter of what percentage of BSA Councils are having problems, or whether someone did something wrong on their own time. That misses the point. When things like this are tied to BSA, rightfully or not, it damages the reputation of the entire organization. We should all be concerned about that.

 

On point....

Is anyone aware of any information that measures BSA membership historically that is a true "apples to apples" measurement? To go all the way back, say, and measure the number of Boy Scouts relative to the number of eligible youth in a given time period, leaving out programs that are not "really Scouting" (my qoutes, only to note that the numbers need to reflect the same "kind of Scouts" and not other programs). Perhaps we could measure that if there is a website containing historical membership figures, and then match that up to census figures. This could potentially a ways towards determing if BSA membership is falling at an increasing rate, as jkh has asserted. Sounds like I just made up another project for myself this weekend

 

Regards Atlanta directly...

It's true that there is little we can do about the Atlanta situation directly unless someone here is actually a member of the council in question. However, there are things we can do to protect our own units. We can understand as much as possible what's going on in Atlanta so we can answer questions from our parents, should they arise, in as thorough a way as possible. This builds confidence not only that we know how to tie square knots, but that we try to keep up with the "big picture" of the organization. We can ask our local Council what steps they take to ensure that our membership numbers are accurate. If we note that our own unit numbers are "off", we can point out the issue to the appropriate authorities, and see what they do about it. That doesn't mean we're accusing them of anything, but just being aware that problems have existed that we need to be sensitive to. Acting at the National level is more difficult, but should the opportunity arise, we should take advantage of them if we are truly interested in the best interests of the organization.

[jkhny]

"As strange as it may seem, it IS possible to be in overall support of a country, or organzation, and yet see fault with it that one might want to try to fix. Bringing up those issues shouldn't make someone "the enemy"."

 

Well, that USED to be the case in this country.......but in some quarters you'd be hard pressed to find that sentiment being expressed now.....

 

failed leadership saying we shouldn't be concerned with what's gone wrong - and shouldn't "point fingers"

 

leaders who'll be in charge of the "investigation" into THEIR own behavior.....

 

sounds eerily familiar.........

 

And as another stated, ever notice that those who say don't play "the blame game" are ususlly to blame?

 

 

And I rather expect THAT sentiment will not be popular here - which shows how BSA has become far TOO limited in who it DOES "include" - "Liberal" chartering organizations have been told to "take it or leave it" and HAVE left. So have individuals who have questioned BSA's stance on "membership." BSA is in danger of becoming a parody of what it once used to be.....

 

If BSA keeps throwing out - or forcing out - anyone who does not "obey" unconditionally, you're going to end up with a far smaller and less successful version of Herr Schirach's organization.

 

ONLY organizations with something to hide resist calls for transparency and openness. And BSA has been MOST resistant to both.

 

[Bob White]

Bringing up issues is one things, MAKING them up is another.

 

jhnky's arguments are exaggerations of the actual situations. He has repeatedly fictionalized the reports and the magnitude of the issues. He has also failed to show any measurable effect the he claims has resulted from this exaggerated events.

 

It is rumor mongering at it lowest. The BSA is no more or less transparent than any other corporation of its type. Jhnky just doesn't like windows, He gets far more enjoyment from his own imagination. He thinks the BSA is clandestine when actully he has just never been interested in learning about it. The council he lives in is selling a piece of land they own and jhnky is distraught that an entire council doesn't stop and do what he and a few of his friends want them to do.

 

This whole uproar he is hosting over Smith, and membership falsification that was found in about 1% of council charters over several years, is a personal campaign because he thinks it was his camp to do with as he wants.

 

He is not "bringing up issues, he is having a temper tantrum.

[packsaddle]

I am detecting an interaction of a personal nature here. Respondent 1 has communicated a concern that he has. This concern may or may not be valid. Respondent 2 has, in the past, expressed resentment when he has perceived that another person has spoken for him or interpreted his thoughts or motives. Respondent 2, nevertheless, is doing just that to respondent 1.

Invoking "Courteous", wouldn't it be courteous to let respondent 1 speak for himself and to let the readers form their own conclusions as to the validity of his concerns? Wouldn't this be an application of the golden rule? Or am I wrong?

[Prairie_Scouter]

>>jhnky's arguments are exaggerations of the actual situations. He has repeatedly fictionalized >>the reports and the magnitude of the issues.

 

Could someone please explain this further?

[Be_Prepared]

I'll try something different - I'll address the topic of the thread.

 

To recap, for those not familiar with the situation in the Atlanta Area Council: For several years, DE's in the city districts have overstated troop and individual numbers. It is unfortunate, but it is a fact. This came to light last spring. An auditing firm was asked to review numbers, and confirmed this. The scout executive was asked to resign, which he did. An interim executive was brought in over the summer. The Atlanta Area Council hired a new executive in August, and his first day on the job is today.

 

The council recognized the problem, the head of the organization resigned ( it happened on his watch ) and new leadership has been brought in to complete the reorganization.

 

Atlanta, like other large metropolitan areas, struggles with ways to effectively bring scouting to innercity youth. Simply put, there is a lack of adult involvement. Many of the scoutmasters are paid professionals. While scouting is 'boy lead' it requires dedicated adults to deliver an effective program.

 

 

[jkhny]

"Bringing up issues is one things, MAKING them up is another.

 

jhnky's arguments are exaggerations of the actual situations. He has repeatedly fictionalized the reports and the magnitude of the issues. He has also failed to show any measurable effect the he claims has resulted from this exaggerated events.

 

It is rumor mongering at it lowest. The BSA is no more or less transparent than any other corporation of its type. Jhnky just doesn't like windows, He gets far more enjoyment from his own imagination. He thinks the BSA is clandestine when actully he has just never been interested in learning about it. The council he lives in is selling a piece of land they own and jhnky is distraught that an entire council doesn't stop and do what he and a few of his friends want them to do.

 

This whole uproar he is hosting over Smith, and membership falsification that was found in about 1% of council charters over several years, is a personal campaign because he thinks it was his camp to do with as he wants.

 

He is not "bringing up issues, he is having a temper tantrum. "

 

 

 

When you can't refute the facts, attack the person bringing them up.

 

This may be one of the reasons few people even bother to try to speak out......those that raise issues are attacked and driven out of BSA.....

 

[Bob White]

We cannot refute facts that you refuse to present.

 

The fact is you manufacture untruths to support your complaints.

 

The fact is, what you said you wrote was nowhere in what you posted. Nowhere has any report, other than yours, said that the FBI told the BSA what the charges were BEFORE they had finished their investigation and Smith had already retired.

 

You made it up and then you treated it as fact. You have done that countless times now to support your tantrum over a camp that does not belong to you being sold by the organization that owns it.

 

We get it Okay? We all understand you do not like the BSA, we get that you do not know and have not taken the time to learn the difference betwwen the BSA and the Council and how they function. We get that you don't want the organization that owns the land and is responsible for its management, doing what they think is best. We get that you will say anything in absence of facts, and will make up your own facts if needed to fan the fires of your anger.

 

Wwe all get it.