Loss of Charter

[ASM59]

Regarding the use of PTA, I am not sure this would work. One of the issues is that the School is refusing to allow Dens to meet at the School. I don't think the PTA could provide meeting places for Dens or Pack Nights. I know about "equal access" but the Pack doesn't seem to want to push their rights to meet in the School at this time. They need a Charter Organization that has a meeting room large enough to accomodate Pack Nights and Den Meetings (Some Dens will meet in homes of Den leaders, but some of the Den leaders do not have the space for meetings).

There is only one church in town with a possible meeting room large enough for a pack night and other Pack events. I will also suggest the local VFW. Thanks for the suggestions. Any more suggestions are welcome.

 

ASM59

[packsaddle]

So....if the CO owns all the stuff, and if BSA is not rechartering units to public schools, does this mean that the troops going to a new CO have to start from scratch - no equipment, no bank account, etc.?

[Bob White]

That's absolutely right Merlyn..EQUAL rights, not special rights. If they want to form a private organization for anyone who shares their beliefs and values they have as much right as the BSA and its members to do so. If the want to set their own membership regulations in that private organization they have everyy right to do so. And I and millions of others will defend their rights, because those rights are for everyone and we all have an obligation to respect and protect them. You make a very good point there.

 

For the record Merlyn that bit about the PTO was one of the first tactics tried 25 years ago by the ACLU and the courts through it out.

 

Packsaddle, the distribution of the assets are up to the individual COs, the pack is not technically moving. The CO is not renewing as a chartered parttner and they are ending THEIR scout unit. I am sure that the local staff will do everything they can to make any transitions as easy as possible.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

That's absolutely right Merlyn..EQUAL rights, not special rights. If they want to form a private organization for anyone who shares their beliefs and values they have as much right as the BSA and its members to do so.

 

Yep. And public schools would have no business owning and operating youth units of either one, right? Or is that "absolutely untrue"?

[Bob White]

I am all for the local school boards being able to decide what values they choose to have shared. Bob White

[evmori]

packsaddle,

I think you could be right. The CO does own all the assets and if the CO doesn't want to give up the gear and/or checking account, they don't have to.

 

And if the school allows other groups to meet at the school, they would then be discriminating if the PTA took over the charter & didn't allow the Pack to meet at the school.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Kahuna]

packsaddle writes: So....if the CO owns all the stuff, and if BSA is not rechartering units to public schools, does this mean that the troops going to a new CO have to start from scratch - no equipment, no bank account, etc.?

 

I think any CO who terminates it's unit is bound to either give the unit the gear or donate it to the council. However, that's one of the reasons I would never allow the CO to own the equipment. You get around that by creating an organization, preferably a 501©(3) corporation to own the equipment and lease it to the unit for $1.00 a year.

 

Another good reason for a non-profit is to sponsor yourself if you can find a meeting place. I hear a lot about CO's here and most of it substantiates my own experience over the years: most of them just want to have the charter on the wall and not have to do anything at all. If you sponsor yourself thru a corporation, you can avoid a lot of the hassles. Of course, there are some really great CO's out there, but I haven't found many who really want to take an active role.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

I am all for the local school boards being able to decide what values they choose to have shared.

 

By contrast, I'm for local school boards following the US constitution and not practicing religious discrimination.

[Bob White]

Then why do you not support the U.S. Constitution's protection of freedm of association? Why do you get to pick and choose which get which rights get respected?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

Then why do you not support the U.S. Constitution's protection of freedm of association?

 

I do, Bob, but public schools are government agencies, which don't HAVE freedom of association; if they did, they could keep out black students if the school board didn't want to 'associate' with them.

 

Why do you get to pick and choose which get which rights get respected?

 

I'm not doing that Bob, but you are. You think government entities ought to be able to practice religious discrimination against atheists and not respect those atheists' civil rights.

 

[Bob White]

No, that is not what I said. I said that athiests for example should have the same rights as any private organization. They should be allowed, and they are allowed, to have their own organization and set their own membership, and accept or refuse whomever they chose. Unfortunately the freedom I am happy to defend for you you do not want the BSA to have.

 

But none of that has anything to do with this thread. This man's scout unit is losing its CO , shouldn't you be doing your happy dance?

[Prairie_Scouter]

ASM59,

The church that acts as our CO has had discussions at the board level of their organization as to whether they should continue to sponsor us. The church supports gays. This discussion has been held each of the last 3 years, and each year they've decided to give us another year. We've considered moving our charter simply to avoid the annual hassle. So, in answer to your question, we haven't had our charter "non-renewed" yet over the gay issue, but it's become a sore point with our CO.

 

At least in Illinois, PTAs are not allowed to charter Scout units. Their published reason is that their insurance will not cover them for the increased liability brought about by the BSA adult leader application. They feel that it effectively shifts liability to the CO. Note that *I'm* not saying this or agreeing; that's just what was passed on to us.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

No, that is not what I said.

 

Explain this statement of your, then:

 

"I am all for the local school boards being able to decide what values they choose to have shared. "

 

By the above, are you saying that schools (or school boards) should be able to be the chartering organization for a Scout unit?

[evmori]

OK. Now we return you to our regular topic.

 

Does anyone have any other ideas for ASM59?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

I would just like to say that I would counsel against using the PTA as the CO. First, there is some risk that, in some states anyway, the PTA might in fact be considered a public accomodation, and subject to anti-discrimination laws. I'm not sure ACLU will consider this worth pursuing, and I think there's a good chance such a challenge will fail, but who needs the aggravation? More importantly, I just don't think a PTA makes for a very good CO (although I am sure there are exceptions). In most places, the leaders of the PTA change every year, and there is a total replacement of all parent leaders and members every few years. The PTA doesn't own the school building, and has only limited control over it. It is highly unlikely that the PTA President will be willing to spend much time being trained by BSA. As a result, the PTA is not likely to be very engaged with the unit, and the relationship will lack continuity. Plus, in many areas, you will have to worry about the possibility that the PTA itself will decide it doesn't agree with BSA's membership policies, and will decline to continue sponsoring you. (I was actually surprised that this didn't happen already at my kids' elementary school.)

Personally, I think a church is the best CO, because you are likely to have more ongoing interaction--you are likely to get some of your youth members and unit leaders from the church, strengthening the long-term bonds.