Banning the Boy Scouts

[fgoodwin]

Banning the Boy Scouts

 

http://www.anxietycenter.com/warning/v7n30.htm

 

Would someone please tell me what is wrong with pledging to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent?

 

And what is wrong with pledging, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and country and to obey the Scout Law; to help other people at all times; to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight"?

 

According to the American Civil Liberties Union and others who have joined the attack on the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) these qualities that are intended to take a boy into a mature manhood are wrong because the BSA discriminates against homosexuals, atheists, and females. Well, imagine that? Girls cant join the Boy Scouts! Instead, they are forced to join the Girl Scouts. And atheists cant join either because the BSA believes that a reverence for a greater power, a universal God of mankind, is essential to being someone who accepts a code of moral behavior advocated by major faiths. And, finally, the BSA believes that homosexuality is not conducive to the well being of a group devoted to traditional male bonding and activities that put lots of males in close contact.

 

The 2005 National Scout Jamboree will bring together 40,000 Boy Scouts, leaders, and volunteers, running from July 25 to August 3. Some 300 Boy Scouts from twenty other nations will be there as well. It is being held on an army base at Fort A.P. Hill, Bowling Green, Virginia.

 

Hans Zeiger has written "Get Off My Honor: The Assault on the Boy Scouts of America" ($12.95, Broadman & Holman, Nashville, TN). He has made a good case for why this nation should be grateful to have had the BSA and why everyone who shares its values should come to its defense. "Around the country, the Boy Scouts are under increasing pressure to become politically correct, watered-down, feminized, and secularized."

 

It doesnt seem to mean anything to a lot of people that the BSA has a civil right to be a voluntary association. If any comparable organization can be forced to accept people who do not share its values, then there is no point to come together to advance those values. This strikes at the very heart of a free and democratic nation.

 

The most extraordinary aspect of the attack on the BSA is that the values it holds dear are the very ones that have contributed to the greatness of America. They are values that guide the conduct of men who have passed through its ranks and gone on to be our nations leaders in business, the military, and politics.

 

Losing sight of those values, however, can lead to some very strange and dangerous ideas. Take, for example, a June 2003 editorial in the Philadelphia Daily News that asked, "Whats the difference between the Taliban and the Boy Scouts?" The writer could see no difference between Muslim fundamentalists and "the homophobic American shapers of youth." One difference is that Islamist law recommends the execution of homosexuals. The BSA merely says they cannot join.

 

As someone who has friends in the Gay community, the one thing they have never been able to accept is that their sexual preference is seen by many as deviancy. It is not that Gays are bad people, theyre not. Their insistence, however, that they are "normal" is contrary to common sense and the laws of Nature. It may be "normal" to them, but it is not normal to a society, to all societies, based on the union of male and female, the bringing of children into the world, and the establishment of families.

 

The BSA does not want them as members. Plainly said, scouting is about learning how to be a man and that does not include sexual relations with other men.

 

Hardly a hotbed of bigots, the BSA does not, for example, exclude boys with disabilities. Being blind or deaf does not exclude one from participating in the Boy Scout experience. Being Black does not either. In the 1920s, a Black preacher organized the first BSA troop. Throughout the 20s and 30s, there were troops in the segregated South and segregation was not enough to stop the BSA spirit of fellowship from helping one another. The BSA has always respected American Indian traditions and a popular merit badge is devoted to Indian lore.

 

The attack on the BSA is forcing local councils to consider the inclusion of Gays. One wonders if they will soon be required to accept atheists and then have to change the Boy Scout oath? If the BSA is forced to abandon its purpose of producing the men of the future, what kind of future would that be? And would we want to live in it?

 

For good or ill, male traits have been the driving force of every successful civilization. The author of "The War on Boys", Christina Hoff Summers, has written that, "Traditional male traits such as aggression, competitiveness, risk-taking, and stoicism---constrained by virtues of valor, honor, and self-sacrifice---are essential to the well-being and safety of our society." One can hardly think what our society would be like without the men who become its soldiers, sailors, airmen, policemen, firemen, and others who stand ready to sacrifice themselves for others.

 

Yes, there are women, too, serving in these occupations, but it is men who set the standards.

 

This nation needs the Boy Scouts of America now more than ever. This nation celebrates and honors the military that is fighting to protect our way of life, our freedoms. We should celebrate the men who take on the responsibilities of marriage and family, and who are tough enough and tender enough to be a father. This nation needs men of faith and men of honor.

 

Those seeking to change the Boy Scouts of America want to weaken this nation. America needs the BSA so that its boys can learn how to integrate themselves into the life of the nation where manhood, masculine values, a code of honor, and the opportunity to become men is essential.

[NJCubScouter]

Leaving the "atheist issue" aside for a moment, and focusing solely on the "gay issue," this whole article is based on a lie, which is contained in this ridiculous sentence:

 

According to the American Civil Liberties Union and others who have joined the attack on the Boy Scouts of America (BSA) these qualities that are intended to take a boy into a mature manhood are wrong because the BSA discriminates against homosexuals, atheists, and females.

 

Nobody is attacking the true values of Scouting, as expressed in the Oath and Law. Those values have nothing to do with whether someone is gay.

 

As for "females," is that even the subject of any lawsuits? Is it even really an issue at the moment? I almost never seen anyone criticizing the BSA these days for excluding girls. It mostly seems to be an issue with those who want to paint the BSA as the victim of attacks, to throw on one more issue that, as far as I can see, isn't really even an issue any more.

[Prairie_Scouter]

The author has certainly done us all a service. The next time a topic comes up talking about the baseless drivel created by the "liberal media", we'll be able to pull this out as a counterpoint.

 

Mostly what I was thinking when I read this was "I need a bigger shovel".

 

What a pile of nonsense.

[johndaigler]

From the above cited website:

 

The National Anxiety Center was founded in 1990 by Alan Caruba, a veteran business and science writer, as well as Public Relations Counselor. The original purpose was to debunk the many claims made by environmental and consumer organizations that were engaged in deliberately false, media-driven scare campaigns.

 

It was apparent that decades of having been told the Earth was doomed due to global warming or an Ice Age, that the nations forests were disappearing, that there was no place to put the garbage, that virtually every species was endangered, that drilling for oil or natural gas, or mining coal and other minerals was a danger, an entire generation of Americans had fallen prey to these lies.

 

Please, Fred, I'm beggin ya - stop the madness!!! I'm getting all anxious!!!

 

We shouldn't be worried about whales, the Ozone, global warming, gender-based inequalities, or fossil fuels; but God help us, the nation will come tumbling if the BSA ever changes!?!?!

 

Anyone who is interested can find these blogs all over the internet. Thank you, but I don't need you to find them for me.

 

What I would be interested in is your thoughts!

Do YOU think we should prioritize traditional male traits over traditional female traits?

Do YOU think we should de-feminize Scouting?

Do YOU think Hanz Zeiger has written a useful book?

Do YOU think we should focus on the issues surrounding,"One can hardly think what our society would be like without the men who become its soldiers, sailors, airmen, policemen, firemen, and others who stand ready to sacrifice themselves for others." Or do YOU think it would be OK to help boys grow up to be men who value other profesions as well? Perhaps we could still value boys who grow up to be men who are teachers, painters, dancers, stay-at-home-parents, . . . ??

 

jd

(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[theysawyoucomin']

I'm sorry but my knuckles must drag on the ground, I think the article had merit.

 

Boys still need an exclusive organization. Women leaders are welcome and encouraged. If you want a coed organization we have Venturing when a boy gets to be 14.

 

Society can't have it both ways. What does society want? Strong self reliant men? or "emasculated" sperm donors able to create more of the same.

 

I am one of those olde fashioned birds who think some boys come for the challenges. We are working with the same aged boys that used to go to sea as powder monkeys, or if wealthy, young midshipmen. These similar boys were in the pony express. In other societies there is a rite of passage. Most boys pass a driving test and then we pray to God(well the ACLU doesn't )he does not harm himself or others. Who can argue that most of what scouts does is good for the individual.

 

 

John daigler- The BSA was an environmental movement before there was a movement

 

 

Society does value teachers, painters ect.

Society does not value firemen, police and the military. Who is Gregory Hines? Who is Shughart and Gordon?

Ask 10 people to name the last policeman or firefighter that died in the line of duty in your town.

As a Marine in the 80's all the people who valued the military were WW2 vets and their friends. Sadly time is doing what the armies of Japan and Germany could not. The "WARRIORS" of this nation protect the teacher, they allow the painter to paint the crucifix in a bucket of urine and fling elephant crap at the virgin Mary.

The hippies that are getting all their signs ready for the march on Washington for this war are soon to be the elders of this nation. Allah help us.

 

The ban on gay leaders was a good one. The Catholic church had a problem and in many communities still has not resolved the problem. Are all gay men pederasts? No. Are some ? Yes. Was this for the protection of the boys? Yes.

 

 

 

 

NJ- The Girl Scouts took the "God issue" out of the argument by doing away with that requirement. So the ACLU won. Much like the terrorists won in Spain.

 

The founder of this organization thought God should play a role in the upbringing of young men. We are being sued for a belief in God and a youth protection policy that we thought would help with a serious problem. Should we have continued to be a target rich opportunity for those who would bring harm to it's members?

 

 

In hindsight what procedures should the BSA have incorporated that would be ACLU friendly?

 

I like irish music. Should I sue the Hibernians so I can be their president?

 

[johndaigler]

uz,

 

I think you've read my questions and made some assumptions that are far from true. No where in my post did I mention what I believe. I was asking Fred what he believed.

 

jd

[theysawyoucomin']

JD,

Our group is very much under attack. Today's liberal press attacks many things I hold dear.

The press eats it up when members of our group get hurt or need to be pulled out of a tight spot. Four girls have a tree fall on them, because it happens at a Scout property it becomes national news. As the song says, "give us dirty laundry". When groups are under attack they "circle the wagons".

 

I did not read Ziegers' book.

 

I don't wish to make wrong assumptions.

I stand by my questions to answer your argument:

 

Who is Gregory Hines? Who are Shughart and Gordon? Which of these people died famous and wealthy and which must be googled to find out who they were and what they did?

 

What should the BSA have done differently when it came to youth protection issues regarding the boys?

 

Should the BSA cave to the ACLU and rid itself of the "reverent" part of Scouting?

 

 

I think after this discussion I will go back to seeking the advice of Scouters with more experience on the fun aspects of Scouting and how to deliver a good program.

 

You spent some ink belittling goodwin's post.

 

JD, I would like to know your thoughts.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

uz2bnowl writes:

The Girl Scouts took the "God issue" out of the argument by doing away with that requirement. So the ACLU won.

 

The ACLU had nothing to do with that; the GSUSA voted to change their requirements back in 1993.

 

Should the BSA cave to the ACLU and rid itself of the "reverent" part of Scouting?

 

The ACLU isn't trying to do that, either. The BSA established in court that it is a private, discriminatory religious organization. The ACLU is concerned with unlawful government support of such an organization, such as public schools "owning and operating" the BSA's private religious clubs, and millions of tax dollars spent supporting the jamboree.

[evmori]

Unlawful government support! Horse apples! Supporting the BSA is as unlawful as driving 55 mph in a 55 mph zone.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merri]

>The Girl Scouts took the "God issue" out of the argument by doing away with that >requirement.

 

I don't understand what you mean about the Girl Scouts doing away with the requirement. The first part of the Girl Scout promise is still to "serve God and my country". Perhaps the change you're referring to is the policy change which states:

 

Girl Scouts of the USA makes no attempt to define or interpret the word "God" in the Girl Scout Promise. It looks to individual members to establish for themselves the nature of their spiritual beliefs. When making the Girl Scout Promise, individuals may substitute wording appropriate to their own spiritual beliefs for the word "God."

(Source: Leader's Digest Blue Book of Basic Documents, 2003)

 

Since the Boy Scouts of America policy is not to define God for individual members, the bottom line is pretty much the same, isn't it?

 

> So the ACLU won.

 

I'm pretty sure the ACLU didn't have anything to do with it.

[theysawyoucomin']

Folks,

If what you say is true, I was dead wrong about the God and GSA issue.

 

I heard it from a GSA mother and leader a couple of years ago. She was not correct. I took her word to be gospel and therefore I was not correct.

 

It seems Mr JD is AWOL from the topic.

 

We all know Gregory Hines was a heck of a good dancer.

 

Shughart and Gordon both won "THE MEDAL OF HONOR" for service in Somalia(sp?)

 

Forshizzle! dawg. does our nation value performers over warriors?

 

The ACLU needs their gravy train taken away with legislation to end the US Gov't paying for their law fee every time they sue.

[acco40]

If you can read these posts - thank a teacher. If you can read these posts in English, thank a soldier.

 

Merlyn's point, my point, and the point of the ACLU is simply that public funds should not be spent on private organizations, regardless of how we feel about those private organizations.

 

 

[fgoodwin]

acco writes:Merlyn's point, my point, and the point of the ACLU is simply that public funds should not be spent on private organizations, regardless of how we feel about those private organizations.So, even if BSA allowed girls, gays and atheists, you and the ACLU would still oppose federal support because it is a private organization?

 

(This message has been edited by fgoodwin)

[johndaigler]

AWOL?? My apologies for not being around for 24 hours - didn't know I was expected - didn't know I needed permission.

 

I don't understand why asking questions is seen as insulting or rude. Again, asking the question doesn't imply my feelings - unless you read too much into it.

 

We live in a society where knowledge and the pursuit of it, is highly prized - unless, it seems, that new knowledge challenges our old comfortable ways of thinking and living. It amazes me that Scouters would be aggressive with other Scouters (here, and in other threads) for trying to find answers to questions.

 

UZ, you're off base here. Your posts seem to be putting words into my mouth and thoughts into my head. I can sense your angst and frustration, but why in the world are you aiming it at me?

Most of your assumptions about my thoughts, feelings, and knowledge are incorrect.

 

The entire thrust of my post was that Fred had posted several articles without giving us his thoughts or ideas. I didn't (don't)understand if he was saying the articles were good, bad, true, dishonest, insulting . . . The point I was trying to make was that random internet bloggers hold no value for me, whereas Fred does.

 

 

jd

 

 

 

[Greying Beaver]

One of my "distinguished co-workers" had it in for me when I told him of the fun our troop had camping one weekend. After he finished his diatribe about BSA is training our youth to be hate, I began asking him "The Fifteen Questions". 1.)What is wrong with teaching a boy to be trustworthy? "Nothing," he said. 2.) What is wrong with . . . loyal? Same answer. 13.)What is wrong with . . . his duty to God and his country?" Same answer. Dodged that bullet! 14.) What is wrong with . . . his duty to others? Same answer. 15.)What is wrong with . . . his duty to himself? Same answer. It surprised him that he found nothing wrong with the boy scouts. When he asked about homosexuals, I told him that we (scouts) do not hate homosexuals, that we just do not want them in scouting. Then I remended him that were his father homosexual and his mother lesbian, that he would not be here. And that we answer to a higher authority about such things and doesn't he do the same? Game, set and match. Works every time.