An Analogy - Is BSA a Sinking Ship?

[Bob White]

What a persons salary is is not a "responsibility" as requested.

 

It might help you to look into an official BSA reference or resource.

 

 

[johndaigler]

Dear Bob White,

 

I asked for help for others and this is what you offer?

 

"BW, just what exactly should a trained Scouter who knows, and is successful at, his/her role but has concerns about policy, National's organizational structure and decision-making do?

 

"The question assumes that such a scouter would have those concerns, and that is seldom the case.

Why would a scouter who is successful at their position be worrying about the structure at national? Why would a successful scouter need to worry about national policy?"

 

The arrogance of your words is frightening. Again, I wish you were able to offer help rather than villification of Scouters seeking information.

 

 

"Bob -- can you educate the ignorant masses

 

No I can't. In fact I doubt anyone can, after all isn't that what makes them ignorant masses? It is not lack of information that makes them ignorant, for information is readily available. It is their inability to learn, or their choice to not seek the information that keeps them ignorant.

 

Truly, truly ARROGANT.

 

Lots of us are capable of educating people who want to learn about Scouting and who ask questions seeking answers. But those who lack the will to learn but choose to gossip and conjure up their own false scenarios of what they "think" is the truth are doomed to wallow in their own self-imposed ignorance.

 

Wouldn't it be kinder to actually answer the questions and just help teach us ignorant, cowardly, lazy, gossipers?

 

Over tha past few years I and others have given factual information only to have it rejected because the readers ignorance was more comfortable than the truth. Their ignorance allows them to continue to use others as a scapegoat for their own problems.

 

Again, you're insulting and offer nothing. Just help. PLEASE just point people in a useful direction. Reread your post - There is not one single offering of assistance, or teaching, or guidance, or modeling of scoutlike behavior.

 

Can I tell you the top ten responsibilities. Probably not.

 

Gee, I'm sure surprised!

 

TJ,

 

 

"New Leader Essentials" curricula says:

 

Scouting is a volunteer-run movement, but Scouting also has well-trained professionals who coach and support the volunteers in their efforts. In addition to providing unit leadership, volunteers staff district committees, council boards, and even the national board of directors of the BSA. Volunteers and professionals work as a team to serve the packs, troops and crews in our council and district

 

AND

 

Encourage participants to suggest answers to the question, "What does the BSA's National Council provide?"

 

With financial support from youth and adult registration fees, magazine advertising, and uniform and equipment sales, the National council:

 

* Supports local councils.

* Conducts program research and development.

* Develops literature and materials.

* Provides professional training.

* Operates national high-adventure and training facilities.

* Conducts national events such as jamborees.

 

 

"CS Leader Specific" training does not mention National.

 

"Training the Chartered Organization Representative" Training curricula says:

 

[showing a graphic with the National Organization as a base-brick in a pyramid with the Boy at the peak of the pyramid.]

The national organization consists of four regions, 33 areas, and the national office in Irving, Texas. The national office develops program, policy training, literature, and videos, and maintains standards for the organization. There is a national volunteer board that oversees the National COuncil.

 

AND

 

One of the roles of the national organization of the Boy Scouts is to grant charters to use the Scouting program. {A discussion of charters continues occasionally mentioning the phrase 'national organization'}

 

AND

 

Beyond training offered on the local council level, the BSA offers training on a national level. Philmont Training Center in New Mexico provides "mountaintop" training experiences. Volunteers are exposed to national vounteers and staff.

 

"YPT" does not concern itself with the national organization and I won't bother to go back and check Fast Start, because even if it's mentioned, it could only be in a most cursory manner.

 

Sorry I couldn't come up with anything else from the basic training classes.

 

jd

 

My apologies to those of you who find this falling into the rant category.

 

More apologies to the moderator team - this needed some moderation, but I couldn't find any.

(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

"Public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units.

 

Absolutely untrue

 

Bob, your answer is wrong no matter how you look at it.

 

First, public schools can no longer sponsor scout units, because the sponsor of a scout unit is required to practice religious discrimination, and public schools can't legally do that.

 

Second, the BSA itself has stated that it will no longer issue charters for scout units to public schools, and has told its councils not to do this -- so even if it was legal, the BSA says it won't grant such a charter any longer.

 

So public schools can't sponsor scout units, both in the sense that they can't legally do it, and in the sense that they will not be accepted as a sponsor by the BSA (assuming Clark Farrer, Director of Registration wasn't lying to the ACLU in his March 11 letter):

 

 

...

I have advised all local councils to transfer charters issued to government entities to private entities immediately. My office will work with councils to see that the transfers are made, and I will confirm during the next chartering cycle that councils have complied. Any charter which thereafter designates a government entity will be rejected.

...

 

 

So how is Prairie_Scouter's statement "Absolutely untrue"?

[Bob White]

John

Your questions were answered. I cannot help that you do not like the answers.

 

As you have discovered by simply looking at some basic training information the national council has specific responsibilities (and as I pointed out in the current training curriculumn this information is in New Leader Essentials and in the years prior to NLE was in every basic training course for each program). If you watch the video tape for New Leader Essentials you would have a more complete list. Such as...national/regional inspects and certifies camping facilities and camp programs.

 

So you see when you say national isn't doing its job, you first need to understand what their job is. Things like the quality of the local program is not national's responsibility, whereas developing the pogram and its resources are.

 

If you want to say that the program isn't good that would be a difficult concept to prove since the program has developed and succeedded for almost a hundred years, and the resources are certainly abundant. The problems that most posters complain about and blame national for are as you can now see.. not what national does. If your local program suffers than you need to follow the program better or get leaders who will. National supports the council, if your council isn't supporting you then that is a problem in your local independent council corporation...not national.

 

Almost every problem presented on this board is a result of a person or persons in the unit not following the program. Look at what you have learned in only a few hours by using BSA resouces that have always been available to you.

 

National/Regional

1. Supports local councils.

2. Conducts program research and development.

3. Develops literature and materials.

4. Provides professional training.

5. Operates national high-adventure and training facilities.

6. Conducts national events such as jamborees.

7. Maintains standards for the organization

8. Inspects and certifies camps

9. Sets policies for safety, membership, advancement, uniform

10. Grants council charters

11. Develops and determines the uniforms of the programs

12. Responsible for registering and maintaining membership records

13. Makes an annual report to congress on the staus of the movement

14. Develops and produces advancement recognitions and awards.

 

You also need to understand that only a small portion of this is done by scouting profesionals or paid support staff. The majority is done by volunteer committees selected for their abilities, experience and positive atitudes toward scouting and the youth it serves.

 

And imagine that all this is taught in the first 90 minutes of a scout leaders training. See you we are always saying how important training is?

 

 

 

[evmori]

Sure Bob! I will answer to the best of my ability. That answer would be I have no idea. Nor have I ever professed to. You, however have professed to have the answer yet you refuse to share. Not a real big surprise.

 

Merlyn,

I know of many public schools that still charter Scout units. You are really gonna have to do some work to get this blatant & rampant practice stopped. And while you are at it, go after all those other discriminatory organizations that do the same thing. Oh wait! I forgot! You don't care about them! You only want to try to destroy the BSA! Keep trying!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

 

[Trevorum]

jd, you're grinding your teeth ... I can hear it ...

[tjhammer]

JD - don't sweat BW's arrogance. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim. But, as he implies, he means well. If you can cut through the condescension, there's often a underlying point worth agreeing with, he just does a very poor job of communicating and leading to get that point established.

 

No matter who you are or what experiences you've had with Scouting, it won't ever reach a sufficient level as long as BW believes you're opinion is wrong. To be fair, I really don't disagree with much of the general point he's trying to make... that Scouting is best done locally, and that should be our focus. But it is absurd to think BSA National's role can not get in the way of local Scouting, and that local Scouters should not be concerned when that happens.

 

It's not important that I have sat in plenty of committee meetings at the national level, and was on a first name basis with two of the last three Chief Scout Execs. My involvement with the World Organization of Scout Movements in Geneva, including more than a year of program development and involvement in other countries, is irrelevant, at least to BW. The fact that I started with Scouting when I was eight, then progressively - and extensively - served local, council, regional, national and international levels of the program is really not important.

 

The fact is, in his mind, I should no longer be involved in Scouting (you know, because I now don't meet the membership requirements), and because I have a critique of the organization I'm relegated to "whiner" status, and in the way of people who are really doing something for Scouting.

 

I agree with BW, to an extent, that Scouters should seek to improve Scouting around them, regardless of what community - or level of the program - they are involved in.

 

However, when malfeasance, incompetence, or decision making manipulated by special interests gets in the way of local Scouting, it is cause for legitimate concern.

 

The analogy that McDonald's franchisees don't care about what the parent company does is absurd. It's the whole reason they are McDonald's franchisees, and not running their own Bob's Burger Barn. And you can sure bet that when McDonald's corporate has a PR disaster (think "Supersize Me" documentary"), the franchisees are screaming up the chain for someone to help. When a local Wendy's franchise is accused (falsely) of having a finger in the chili, not only is that local franchise devastated, repercussions are felt across the country. When a local Denny's decides it doesn't want to serve black people, the entire Denny's chain gets a reputation of bigotry.

 

Scouting might be "hunky dory" in your area, but don't be blind or naive to think that's true everywhere, or that a trend of problems might eventually end up in your backyard.

 

I knew several Council Scout Executives (and council volunteer leaders) back during the "Council of Nine", the nine major metro councils that initially came out against the BSA's ban on gays. I can tell you most of these folks genuninely believed Scouting's policy was wrong. And some of them were simply looking at the community around them, and reading the writing on the wall. In self-interest, they were trying to separate from a national position that would have drastic consequences for Scouting in their communities.

 

A few years later, many of those folks have retired now. And Scouting in some major metro councils is probably the biggest hit by membership slides and financial drought. For a while, games could be played with LFL and inner-city programs that were "underwritten" to keep the Scouting numbers artificially inflated, but that's not a sustainable program, mostly because it doesn't require dedicated volunteer leaders (which are the "engine" that has kept Scouting moving forward for a century).

 

Visit the council in Chicago (a ghost town of an office and practically non-existent relations between volunteer leaders and the "paid staff that works for them"). Look at Atlanta, where the pressure to keep up has enabled a mess that Jim Terry (dispatched from National) is trying to carve into something reasonably resembling Scouting. Was the devastation of Scouting in some of these metro areas only because local volunteer leaders stopped doing their job? Or what role did BSA National -- forcing these locales to adopt policies that were contradictory to their local community standards, pushing professional candidates that would toe the party line -- play in the devastation?

 

I'm not chicken little... Scouting was and is one of the great institutions of the world. And the impact Scouting can have on a boy is amazing. But as the paid professional mantra goes, "you can't put the Scouting into the boy, unless you first put the boy into Scouting". And there's clearly a current problem, more than a cyclical matter, quickening around us. It's going to continue to be harder and harder to "put the boy into Scouting" as parents under 35 have kids entering our total available youth.

 

In the end, I can identify nothing that BSA National has done to reverse the tide, and the reality is some of BSA National's actions can be directly blamed for waves crashing against local councils, particularly in some major metros.

 

I don't think BSA is a sinking ship, but I do think it's adrift at sea, and the direction it will eventually take will ultimately be dictated by parents. The only question is, how big a group of parents will care?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

I know of many public schools that still charter Scout units. You are really gonna have to do some work to get this blatant & rampant practice stopped.

 

Ed, those schools certainly will get sued for practicing religious discrimination.

 

And while you are at it, go after all those other discriminatory organizations that do the same thing. Oh wait! I forgot! You don't care about them!

 

Ed, there ARE no other private organizations that have public schools practice religious discrimination on their behalf.

[evmori]

Well, Merlyn, I doubt if they will be sued for religious discrimination or anything else for that fact. You seem to be the only one that gives a horse apple!

 

Are you sure about your statement? Better check before you are! But then again, you really aren't concerned with any other organizations or the facts. Your and the ACLU's only concern is the destruction of the BSA at any cost! That ain't gonna happen, son.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

On the contrary Ed. You have professed to be 'trained' a "trainer" and a "commissioner".

How could you NOT be aware of the various responsibilities of the various administative levels of scouting and yet be trained, train others, and perform commissioner responsibilities?

 

How do you teach what you do not know? How can you say I did not answer? My responses are there to read with the responsibilities listed, I cannot however find your list. I now know that you after several years as a trainer...you never knew!

 

I hope teeth are grinding. I also hopes that handbooks are finally being read.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

Well, Merlyn, I doubt if they will be sued for religious discrimination or anything else for that fact.

 

Well Ed, we'll see if the national BSA lied to the ACLU and renews any charters to public schools, and, if they are renewed, what lawsuits follow. I don't consider your batting average in predicting legal outcomes concerning the BSA to be very high.

 

I also note that Bob White has said nothing to support his "absolutely untrue" remark to Prairie_Scouter; could it be he has never read the BSA's official response to the ACLU, where the director of registration states they will no longer charter scout units to government entities? Shouldn't Bob be aware of the new chartering restrictions, reportedly sent to all councils?

[Bob White]

As has been pointed out it is not that the schools can't be sponsors, it is that they most probably will not due to the coersive behavior of the ACLU and their threats to take any school that supports any organization such as scouting that might teach traditional values to court.

 

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

No Bob, the BSA has STATED that they will not issue charters to government entities anymore (which includes public schools). Now, either the BSA is lying (always a possibility), or public schools will not be allowed to charter scout units. Which means your statement of "absolutely untrue" is false (or you think the BSA was lying).

 

Plus, as I've explained in this forum for years, all chartering organizations are required to practice religious discrimination, and public schools can't do that. Your characterization of the situation is completely dishonest - the ACLU isn't concerned about "traditional values", they are concerned about religious discrimination. Excluding atheists is religious discrimination, and any public school that does so deserves to get sued.

[CA_Scouter]

 

 

MODERATORS - Please close this thread. Its the same old arguments with the same old people. Nyah, Nyah, this... and nyah, nyah that... enough already!

 

 

 

 

[evmori]

On the contrary Ed. You have professed to be 'trained' a "trainer" and a "commissioner".

How could you NOT be aware of the various responsibilities of the various administative levels of scouting and yet be trained, train others, and perform commissioner responsibilities?

 

Yes Bob. I have been trained, lead training and am a commissioner. I never stated I am unaware of the various responsibilities at various levels. What I said was I do not have an accurate list of those responsibilities not do I know what they are. I have never been trained on a National basis nor have I done training on a National basis. Strictly District. And according to you, I don't need to worry about it.

 

How do you teach what you do not know?

 

I don't teach what I don't know. Where have I ever posted that?

 

How can you say I did not answer? My responses are there to read with the responsibilities listed,

 

You have constantly dodge questions by answering them with more questions!

 

I cannot however find your list. I now know that you after several years as a trainer...you never knew!

 

I don't have a list! Never said I did. You did! And you also stated "Why would a scouter who is successful at their position be worrying about the structure at national? Why would a successful scouter need to worry about national policy?" So why do I need to have a list? I don't need to worry about anything at National!

 

Bob,

I have never professed to know how National operates. You have. Yet why do you need to know or care since a successful Scouter such as yourself shouldn't need to worry about National!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10