An Analogy - Is BSA a Sinking Ship?

[madkins007]

I think there are some concerns in several aspects of Scouting. I also think we'd have a hard time agreeing on them all.

 

I believe the BSA could use a solid, large-scale overhaul, but that is based more on the idea that ANY long-term program can benefit from taking a long, hard, fresh look at itself than because of any specific concerns.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

We are sadly near the end of one disastrous trip. The bow of the ship is straight down in the water and we are holding on to the stern while people are dropping all around us. We know that either we are going to the bottom or we are going to freeze in the water. Our hope is fading but in the moonlight and with the gentle breeze there comes wafting across the deck the sweet sounds of "Nearer our God to Thee" played by our ever unstoppable corps of accordion players. The music is so uplifting that the boat raises straight up and switches ends. The stern is now straight down and the bow up. Of course, we sprint to the other end. The accordions get louder and the boat makes another switch, as do we. We realize that now we are on a kind of a cork that is bobbing up and down and continually switching ends. Out of nowhere, the banjos kick in with "Amazing Grace". It is surrealistic because now, instead of doom, it is more like the end to a bad dream during a long hot Church service. All of a sudden the skies open up, the moon fades and it is high noon and we are near the shores of a tropical paradise, white sands and dancing hula girls. Nobody can figure out what just happened. We then realize that it was only a poor analogy that we were having but being the ever vigilant crew members that we are, we try to dismiss the whole episode as the end to a bad batch of swill that we had downed the night before.

 

The Moral of the Story: When you think the end is near, try believing that it isn't. It could be something totally different like the beginning of a really great vacation, kind of like Scouting.

 

FB

 

 

[Bob White]

"The effect on us all, tho, is that as the National office goes along on it's way, what it does, does have an effect on us. As they marginalize Scouting, funding is affected, participation is affected, and we all have a stake in that."

 

There is no proof of that.

 

If what Prairie Scouter wrote was true then why aren't all councils affected the same? We all have the same national regulations. We all get or don't get the same services. So why are some districts and councils thriving while others are stagnant or suffering.

 

If the problem was indeed at the national level it should have the same effect on everyone. The council I volunteer in has had membership and financial growth every year for the last 7 years. I know of others who are doing as the same as well.

 

IF we ALL suffer then why are we not all suffering?(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Backpacker]

jkhny

 

Using your logic that if a system or organization has done something wrong that they are a sinking ship then you would have to include the US government, most US corporations, the Catholic Church and most other faith traditions, school districts, colleges etc., etc. The fact is all these groups, including the BSA, are run by imperfect humans who make mistakes, sometimes serious ones. You don't scuttle an entire ship if one small part is defective, you repair or replace that part. Your doom and gloom about the demise of the BSA is illogical and not realistic. If the BSA makes mistakes they will learn from them and make the necessary changes, otherwise just like any company they will go out of business. I don't think however that the BSA is ready to collapse, if anything their message and program are even more needed in todays society than in any other time in BSA history.(This message has been edited by Backpacker)

[scoutldr]

Keep shoveling...there's bound to be a pony in here somewhere!

 

Why are some Councils suffering? Lack of leadership and bad management. Failure to replace SE's who continue to fail to get results because they are arrogantly ineffective at motivating and working with volunteers. Hire a new SE and give him/her 3 years to achieve goals legally and honorably. If he fails to deliver, replace him and start over. As has been suggested for volunteers, SEs should have finite terms of office, subject to renewal based on performance and results.

[Bob White]

SEs should have finite terms of office, subject to renewal based on performance and results.

 

All Se's are contract employees of the local. Each council can determine the conditions and goals of the coontract. What you want already exists.

 

[Bob White]

"SEs should have finite terms of office, subject to renewal based on performance and results."

 

All SE's are contract employees of the local council. Each council can determine the conditions and goals of the contract. What you want already exists.

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

>"The effect on us all, tho, is that as the National office goes along on it's way, what it >does, does have an effect on us. As they marginalize Scouting, funding is affected, >participation is affected, and we all have a stake in that."

 

>There is no proof of that.

 

Are you sure of that?

BSA in court cases of the past decade has taken a very public stance on some of its social policies. As a result, funding organizations, such as United Way, has pulled funding in some cases. The military is no longer allowed to support Scout units. Public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units. Membership is down, and this decrease can't be explained by a general drop in available youth population. Something is causing youth to opt out of Scouting; responsibility for the health of the national organization lies at the top. While regional differences may occur (we are fortunate to have been able to maintain our membership rates over the past couple of years), nonetheless, the membership level across the nation is down. In the big picture, how can you say that this doesn't affect all of us at some level? Before Sears was bought out by Kmart, they had many stores that were doing very well; unfortunately, they had many more that weren't doing very well at all. This ultimately led to an overall weakness that made them an acquisition target. Adverse conditions and errant business strategy don't necessarily affect an organization equally across the board. If your strategy damages enough of your business "branches", it's possible for the entire organization to collapse, even while some branches are still making profits. So, while we may not all be suffering (which is not what I said in my post), we do all have a stake in what is happening (which *is* what I said in my post).

[evmori]

I don't think the BSA is a sinking ship. It does have some holes in its hull, though. The handling of recent events at National has not helped. And what National does effects the entire organization. If not in reality then in perception.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[Bob White]

"BSA in court cases of the past decade has taken a very public stance on some of its social policies."

 

As oppossed to what? Going to court and taking a secreet stance on their position?

 

"As a result, funding organizations, such as United Way, has pulled funding in some cases.

 

Yes, but only in some cases. In fact many organizations have been reduced or cut out by UW simply because many local UWs have shifted their attention to other types of services.

 

"The military is no longer allowed to support Scout units.

 

Untrue

 

"Public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units.

 

Absolutely untrue.

 

"Membership is down,"

 

Oonly slightly and membership has wained at other times in the BSAs 95 year history and has always recovered.

 

"and this decrease can't be explained by a general drop in available youth population.

 

In can in some councils.

 

" Something is causing youth to opt out of Scouting;"

You mean like the quality of the individual unit program?

 

"responsibility for the health of the national organization lies at the top."

 

So why not let them deal with it and you do the job YOU are responsible for?

 

 

"While regional differences may occur (we are fortunate to have been able to maintain our membership rates over the past couple of years), nonetheless, the membership level across the nation is down.

 

You already said that, and my response is the same...so what? It's been down before and come back. memberships in most organizations is cyclical.

 

"In the big picture, how can you say that this doesn't affect all of us at some level? "

 

Easily, because you have zero evidence that it does.

 

"Before Sears was bought out by Kmart, they had many stores that were doing very well; unfortunately, they had many more that weren't doing very well at all. This ultimately led to an overall weakness that made them an acquisition target. Adverse conditions and errant business strategy don't necessarily affect an organization equally across the board. If your strategy damages enough of your business "branches", it's possible for the entire organization to collapse, even while some branches are still making profits. So, while we may not all be suffering (which is not what I said in my post), we do all have a stake in what is happening (which *is* what I said in my post).

 

What you failed to mention was that the stake you own is at the unit level not at national. If you want to effect membership than have a better unit meeting and better activities. An SE in Atlanta has no effect on your skill or lack of skill as a program leader.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Regardless of the semantic struggle, it's clear that there are problems in the ways that the military, public schools, and some funding agencies relate to BSA. How exactly that should be worded to be technically correct, I'll leave to someone else. Membership is down, and has been down for several years; read into that what you want.

 

>" Something is causing youth to opt out of Scouting;"

>You mean like the quality of the individual unit program?

Like you say, Bob, "in some cases". But, the fact that many don't even consider BSA means that they're never seeing whether the local program is good or not. That happens "in some cases", too.

 

>"responsibility for the health of the national organization lies at the top."

>So why not let them deal with it and you do the job YOU are responsible for?

Because I'm not willing to stick my head in the sand. When I see a bunch of people walking towards the edge of cliff, I'm more likely to try and steer them differently than just step out of the way.

 

>"In the big picture, how can you say that this doesn't affect all of us at some level? "

>Easily, because you have zero evidence that it does.

And since you seem to have no evidence that it doesn't, does that make it a tie? I would suggest that every time the National Office is involved in some scandal at a Council that rolls up to them, it rolls right back down to us. The press involved in those incidents makes it more difficult for us to raise funds and grow membership.

 

The point is that actions taken by BSA, the National office, affect us, and we have a stake in that. If you're right that our stake is really just at the local unit, then that would seem to argue in favor of the "local option" that's been mentioned in these forums several times. If that's where the stake is, then maybe BSA should give us control at that level. I think that we need to look at the health of the entire organization, and pitch in whereever we can to help and make things right.

[johndaigler]

Should I be overly worried that I understand FB better than BW?????????

 

jk, one word - "fewer".

 

PrairieScouter, agreed

 

BW, just what exactly should a trained Scouter who knows, and is successful at, his/her role but has concerns about policy, National's organizational structure and decision-making do? Please don't call them whiners, or gripers, or worse yet "loud mouth drunks" (yeah, I know, that wasn't yours...). My point is that there is more than just one frustrated Scouter out there. Rather than telling them to "shut up and go away", what can we offer?

 

jd

 

BTW, isn't the whole "sinking ship" thing a metaphor - not an Analogy???(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[tjhammer]

Bob -- can you educate the ignorant masses with a list of the top 10 responsibilities of the National Council? Maybe then we can all better understand just how little they have to do with 'real scouting' that's going on, and why it's non of our concern what they do.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[Bob White]

"BW, just what exactly should a trained Scouter who knows, and is successful at, his/her role but has concerns about policy, National's organizational structure and decision-making do?

 

The question assumes that such a scouter would have those concerns, and that is seldom the case.

 

Why would a scouter who is successful at their position be worrying about the structure at national? Why would a successful scouter need to worry about national policy? If the policies were a hinderance then they wouldn't be successful would they, at least not according to some of the posters here who say that national policy is the cause of all our problems.

 

Does a successful McDonalds manager worry about the corporate structure of McDonalds or about servicing the customers lined up at their window?

 

Successful leaders have learned what the role is of each level of scouting and make use of the resources created for them, follow the program developed for them and nurture the values of scouting in those they serve.

 

"Bob -- can you educate the ignorant masses

 

No I can't. In fact I doubt anyone can, after all isn't that what makes them ignorant masses? It is not lack of information that makes them ignorant, for information is readily available. It is their inability to learn, or their choice to not seek the information that keeps them ignorant.

 

Lots of us are capable of educating people who want to learn about Scouting and who ask questions seeking answers. But those who lack the will to learn but choose to gossip and conjure up their own false scenarios of what they "think" is the truth are doomed to wallow in their own self-imposed ignorance.

 

Over tha past few years I and others have given factual information only to have it rejected because the readers ignorance was more comfortable than the truth. Their ignorance allows them to continue to use others as a scapegoat for their own problems.

 

Can I tell you the top ten responsibilities. Probably not. I can tell you 10 responsibilities of the National/Regional level, but what is "top" is a subjective determination that would be different for different people based on their person needs, priorities and roles.

 

Better yet, rather than hear it from me who you do not believe, you could attend New leader Essentials the very first step in all adult training in scouting in every program level, where the roles and responsibilities of each level are explained. In fact the roles of national/regioanal Scouting has for decades been explained in all levels od basic training in scouting, how can any 'trained" leader on this board not know them and how they differ from council/district and unit responsibilities?

 

OR

 

A number of the malcontented posters here have said they are thoroughly trained and knowledgable in scouting. And since you seem to align yourself with them more often it seems only fitting that they be allowed the first opportunity to list the responsibilities of the National/Regional Level of scouting as they know it to be.

 

So how about it boys? Who would like to give a clear, objective, ACCURATE list of the responsibilities of the National/Regional level of Scouting? Ed? Back Packer? Jkhny? Prairie Scouter? TJHammer? SemperParatus? madkins007?

 

What say you?

 

 

[madkins007]

In trying to research for Bob White's challenge, I discovered what has been posted before- the BSA is not very open about how it is run on the top levels.

 

I did discover that the Chief Exec. earns well over $300,000 for the job, putting him in the top pay range of charitable organizations.

 

I also found this article on the reknowned USSSP: http://usscouts.org/aboutbsa/bsaorg.html.

 

It cleared up a few things for me but does not quite answer the challange.