Problems at other youth groups?

[Prairie_Scouter]

Bob, it's fairly clear that you missed the detail in jkhny's post, otherwise you have noticed that he did say that out of the hits he got on his searches, few were relevent, but that some certainly were. He noted this several times.

[Bob White]

Merlyn When I said that few public schools chartered units you argued that many did. When the statement was made that they can't and I said they do, you now say they don't. Oh Well.

 

Prairie,

So then what was the point of posting the number of hits if we all agree that the numbers include an unknown quantity of unrelated and duplicated links with no real statistical value. Its just BSA bashing. Even you on rare occassion have found something positive to say about scouting. Don't you find it incredible that jhnky kind find nothing in this huge program to post about other than his malicious attacks.

 

 

"Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those who are doing it"

 

BW

 

[jkhny]

I really am not happy to add ANOTHER listing, but it reinforces my point - BSA makes the news in bad ways far more often than other groups.

 

Googled News - "Boys and Girls Clubs" "Big Brothers" "Boy Scouts" NO qualifiers.

 

Nothing negative on first five pages for Big Brothers or Boys and Girls Clubs

 

Under Boy Scouts first page, this pops up. NOT part of the search I did earlier (this incident is repeated multiple times).

 

 

"Posted on Thu, Aug. 25, 2005

 

Los Altos scoutmaster held on molest charges

 

OTHER POSSIBLE VICTIMS BEING SOUGHT

 

By Elise Ackerman

 

Mercury News

 

 

The Santa Clara County Sheriff arrested a Los Altos Boy Scout leader Thursday morning for allegedly molesting several scouts over a five-year period.

 

Terrance Helm, a spokesman for the sheriff's office, said Gregory Allen Wagner, 42, has been associated with Troop 31 of the Pacific Skyline Council, Boy Scouts of America, since 1986. Authorities said he is a scoutmaster.

 

The Pacific Skyline Council covers Northern Santa Clara County and San Mateo County.

 

Helm said the sheriff's office began an investigation about 11 days ago, when one of Wagner's alleged victims came forward.

 

The sheriff's office now believes that Wagner had inappropriate contact with several scouts from 1987 to 1992. Most of the alleged molestation took place on scouting trips and the age of the victims ranged from 12 to 17 years, Helm said.

 

Deputies arrested Helm at his home on Thursday morning around 7 a.m.

 

Helm said sheriff's investigators are hoping that more victims will step forward and are asking anyone who has been a member of Troop 31 and was either a victim themselves or saw Wagner acting inappropriately with someone else to call Detective Deborah Johnson at (408) 808-4530 or the anonymous tip line at (408) 808-4431."

 

 

I'm starting to wonder about the abuse issue. I had a sense that this was an issue but there are far more than I expected. "Youth Protection" does NOT seem to be preventing these incidents in BSA. Why not? It seems like this issue needs revisiting if parents are really to have any faith that their boys are safe in Scouting.

 

 

 

NOTE:

 

From Boys and Girls Club site:

"more than 4.4 million boys & girls served

some 3,700 Club locations

Locations in all 50 states, Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands plus domestic and international military bases

Some 44,000 trained professional staff "

 

This organization and BSA can be considered roughly equivalent in youth served - though many participants here spend more time in activities here than a Scout would in Scouting. Nothing of concern in searches.

 

 

Big Brothers serves 220,000 youth according to their web site.

 

A closer look at this organization is in order to provide a fair comparison.

 

There are only a fraction of the boys served by BSA here and a fraction of hits that have anything to do with the organization in question (the colloquialism does pop up in hits routinely). There DO seem to be relevant reports here but I had to go back quite far to find them. However a Big Brother incident seems to usually involve one boy while many of the Scout reports seem to involve multiple victims -reflecting the differring nature of the organizations.

 

A real comparison would require listing individual cases for each organization and analyzing the proportionate totals in a common time frame.

 

So, Prairie has a valid point with Big Brothers. There may be a problem here with abuse but the rate of abuse is not readily determined from a quick look.

 

HOWEVER, my initial point remains. In searches, Boy Scouts is associated with "bad things" FAR more often than "Big Brothers."

 

Anyone doing such a search will see a large amount of negative things about BSA. They will NOT see very much (if anything, depending on the duration and length of the search) negative about Big Brothers.

 

But abuse is not the only "problem" or "negative" issue that arises in searches. "Fraud" regularly pops up as a relevant hit with BSA. And in an unpopular topic, so does "death" (even ignoring random "acts of God").

 

After doing such searches, parents cannot be faulted in thinking that BSA does a far poorer job of "protecting" their children than other organizations and that BSA has far more problems than other organizations.

 

THAT is a problem in recruiting (if not retaining) Scouts.

[Bob White]

Is it your intention to say that the BSA trained this man to abuse children?

 

Are you suggesting that the unit leaders followed the program amd the required Youth Protection policies and yet the man was able to be alone with a scout long enough to molest them on multiple occassions even within the direst sight of another adult?

 

Are you saying that the parents reported the abusesd and that the CO not only kept him as a leader but kept their children in the program?

 

OR

 

The leaders and CO did not follow the program and the leader without the knowledge of the other leaders, the CO, the BSA,did this crime on his own.

 

what do you think was the situation here?

 

 

[mmhardy]

Does Big Brothers, 4H, B&G Clubs, Campfire have the same organizational structure as the BSA?

 

Is it true that just about any group can obtain a charter as long as they agree to the standards of the BSA program?

 

Does 4H, Boys & Girls Clubs have the same charter structure?

 

[mmhardy]

Taking a different tack from jkhny I tried the following searches.

 

Google SEARCH

"boys and girls club" service - 134,000 hits

4h service - 648,000 hits

"boy scouts" service - 929,000 hits

 

Thus my point is scouting is more visable on many fronts.

 

If you Google only the NEWS area the results are even more pronounced.

 

Google NEWS

"boys and girls club" service - 61 hits

4h service - 32 hits

"boy scouts" service - 1,910 hits

 

Umm I see a trend...and it's positive!!!

[evmori]

Once again, point missed!

 

Bob,

If the BSA NOT the CO's owned the units, the discrimination sword the ACLU is slashing the BSA with would be taken out of their hands. If the BSA owned the units & CO's sponsored them, the ACLU would have no claim of discrimination.

 

I would agree the ACLU is out to destroy the BSA or change it's values. But if the legal sword is removed from their hands, they lose their power. Pretty simple and a change I think the BSA should make.

 

NJ,

Am I on the right track here?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[jkhny]

"Taking a different tack from jkhny I tried the following searches.

 

.......Thus my point is scouting is more visable on many fronts.

If you Google only the NEWS area the results are even more pronounced. ......

Umm I see a trend...and it's positive!!! "

 

 

 

While in that sense one can claim the glass is half full, This reflects a CONCERTED Public Relations by BSA. First, your search term "service" is BIG in the BSA phrase book which boosts counts immensely. BSA has a large PR firm on retainer which is pushing "good Turn for America" with countless press releases touting service to America. Few organizations seem to have a publicity effort that is as well oiled. BSA is adept at "spin."

 

Even in local Councils there is a real effort to "market" Scouting. If you help an old lady across the street NOW, our SE wants you to issue a press release. In my youth you did the good deed to do the good deed, NOT as a PR effort. Jews believe a mitzvah (good work) is undone if publicized. It's intent and value are undermined by the publicity. Personally , I feel the same.

 

Locally, some Scouting efforts have become a joke in this respect with leaders following Council's lead and publicizing efforts that are hardly notable. Our Troop does far more every year than the Cub Scout Pack that touts its superficial efforts that barely involve boys. They tout their "food drive effort" - all the outdated stuff grabbed by parents running out the door - cocktail onions? - while other far more REAL efforts have gone to the food pantry and ASKED "What do you need?" and gone out and bought items to meet thae need. "Publicity" for such superficial efforts has made Scouting look BAD.

 

Many feel that those leaders are involved in Scouting more for self-promotion than for the boys. They do little "work" on anything themselves but their pictures regularly surface in the local paper. Cracks about the "Junior League" Cub Scouts are NOT meant to be complimentary - the Junior League here is known for superficial poofy "beautification" projects - while others are providing books for schools or helping families in need - REAL "service." The Cub Scouts noted actually "hijacked" a long running toy drive that benefitted a local Head Start program to contribute to an effort (NOT needs driven) that two of its leaders supported. They got to "look good" in the other effort but took away the ONLY source of toys for truly needy kids. Other Scout Units and community groups were horrified and scurried to make up the shortfall. When the person running the original toy drive protested, she had HER character attacked!?!

 

Sorry, but I think your search helps make one of my my points. BSA has a focus on IMAGE and puts more effort into that than SUBSTANCE.

 

BSA's focus on "disadvantaged youth" reflects that. You will get a far more "diverse" image of BSA through all its literature (which reflects a veritable rainbow of kids) than you see in Scouting's reality. BSA has found it easier to fake "diversity" and service to a wide range of youth than actually provide it. Recurring scandals in "inner city programs" prove that. As noted, our much publicized effort here is a joke with a PAID head for the units in question and less than a dozen kids at last report.

 

In my opinion - and from personal contact - various Boys and Girls Clubs efforts serve "disadvantaged" youth in a very real way, youth who NEED a "program", FAR better than BSA. But they spend far less time on public relations.

 

They aren't making the headlines as often - in the good ways they may deserve.

 

But then they sure aren't making haedlines in the NEGATIVE ways BSA is. How many stories have now hit about the "latest" molestation case?

 

I really doubt that "service" stories can convince parents that Scouting is great for their son if if follows a story about child abuse by a long serving Scoutmaster.

 

Again, even WITH a CONCERTED effort by BSA to project a "positive" image, there is far more negative to offset than there should be.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

Merlyn When I said that few public schools chartered units you argued that many did. When the statement was made that they can't and I said they do, you now say they don't. Oh Well.

 

Bob, I'm talking about this exchange between you and Prairie_Scouter in the 'sinking ship' thread from Aug. 19th:

 

http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=107649&p=2

 

"The military is no longer allowed to support Scout units.

 

Untrue

 

"Public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units.

 

Absolutely untrue.

 

Prairie_Scouter was listing some of fallout from national BSA policies, including the fact that the military and public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units. You seem to disagree; if you do, on what grounds? If you aren't disagreeing on that point, what do you mean by your responses?

 

Bob, public schools used to be the #1 charter partner for Scout units, with over 10,000 units chartered. Last March, the BSA stated that all of these would be rechartered by the next chartering cycle. As this is still the transition period, there are still some that haven't been rechartered yet, but that number is supposed to fall to zero by the BSA's own statements, and the BSA has said that government entities (including public schools) will not be accepted as chartering orgs in the future. As Prairie_Scouter pointed out, losing their former #1 sponsor is one consequence of the national BSA's policies.

 

Yet when Prairie_Scouter said that public schools can no longer sponsor Scout units, you said that was "Absolutely untrue". How can you claim that's an accurate statement?

[madkins007]

Bob White replied "Since he is not here I will voluntarily fill his position. Every time time you, or jkhny, or prairie scouter, or Ed, toss out any more wild eyed claims about what the BSA should or should not be doing or supposedly is doing that they shouldn't do I will happily say Bull and insist you show evidence. (P) If I cannot support the BSA without being criticized why should you be allowed to make baseless accusations and not face the same scrutiny?"

 

Bob White- thank you!

 

I really appreciate that you take the time and trouble to point out how things should work/do work if things are done right, weak thinking, ideas that sounded good when I was typing them but really weren't, etc.

 

While I try to help people and learn new stuff in some threads, some threads are more 'cracker barrel'- where the give and take is at least partly entertainment in and of itself. In other words, I really, honestly have fun reading your posts- even when pointed at me.

 

I hope I have not offended you with any of my replies- there are few people I have met here I would ever try to offend or tease in a mean way- but you are not one of them (well, OK, maybe a couple times I did not count to 10 before I replied, but overall, I am really glad you're here!)

[Prairie_Scouter]

Bob,

Maybe jkhny just has a lot to say. It's not like we're wasting paper

 

Now, if you don't agree with jk, then his multiple posts full of information are bound to look like BSA bashing. I think that the web searches show a couple of things, which may be what he was getting at by providing the numbers. One, BSA is in the news a lot from a lot of different sources. This just shows how easy it is for good or bad news to quickly spread in the day of the Internet. Two, he displays some good news in showing that not all of those hits are individual events. But, they do represent some number of individual events and that should be a cause for concern to all of us.

 

And, it's hard to have a forum on issues and politics if no one posts items of "issues" and "politics". So, we do. There are plenty of peole who start threads on how BSA is being railroaded in the press or being mistreated by some group or other. The topics on perceived problems at BSA are no different, just the other side of the same coin. They're not "phantom problems" either, they exist. On the other hand, there are plenty of things I like about BSA, and I've said so.

 

>"Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those >who are doing it"

Exactly so, Bob, and that why I'm not going to give up my efforts to correct situations in BSA that don't seem right, regardless of those who say I should just worry about my unit and leave everything else alone.

 

 

[FScouter]

Google hits. What a novel way to support one's position. Hey Fred, could you find and post a newspaper article regarding the statistical relevance of Google hits?

[Bob White]

Greeting and Welcome Neighbor!

 

"Those who say it can't be done should get out of the way of those >who are doing it"

Exactly so, Bob, and that why I'm not going to give up my efforts to correct situations in BSA that don't seem right,"

 

I am so happy to hear of your "efforts" besides merely posting your disagreements on a website, please share with us what committees you are on either nationally or regionally that are currently working to correct the "situations" you refer to and which situations you have formulated plans to remedy.

 

Perhaps that is not what you are doing? Perhaps you have developed a plan individually and are making or sending the presentation to a committee or individual currently addressing that "situation".

 

Please share your plan with us and who you have determined to send the plan to?

 

Many thanks, Ilook forward to an informed, and informative, response

 

BW

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[madkins007]

I know the request for a plan was not addressed to me, but I am in a similar state of mind as Prairie Scouter, so I thought I wouold share MY plan.

 

Where I work, before we bring a problem forth to upper levels of management, we are expected to have (paraphrasing our handbook)-

1. Crafted an intelligent and well-stated 'question', outlining the percieved problem and what we think would qualify as a good resolution.

2. Done our homework to research options and the ramifications of the options.

3. Selected a solid course of action from the options that accomplishes at least most of the goals, and

4. Determined a likely course of action to impliment them.

 

It is also assumed that we will solicit help, opinions, and input from co-workers, affected departments, customers, etc.

 

Oft-times in Scouting, I think I see a concern and have some thoughts, only to discover that either the concern is largely imaginary or really lies along a different direction. Concerns that seem more widely accepted have ramifications that I had not seen or have options I never thought of.

 

One of the strengths of forums like these is the chance to float our ideas out there to see if there is indeed a consensus.

 

Since it has not happened yet, I have nothing to advance to any higher committee. If we ever do come up with a killer suggestion that is widely (but not necessarily universally) agreed upon, the next step would be to determine how to advance it and who would champion it.

 

Besides- there is every possibility that National (or 'the right people') DO monitor this kind of forum!

[Bob White]

(This message has been edited by Bob White)