Problems at other youth groups?

[Bob White]

"Billy Graham employed a guy whose main function was to regularly shout "Bull..." at meetings to make sure that things never fell into groupthink mode.

 

Since he is not here I will voluntarily fill his position. Every time time you, or jkhny, or prairie scouter, or Ed, toss out any more wild eyed claims about what the BSA should or should not be doing or supposedly is doing that they shouldn't do I will happily say Bull and insist you show evidence.

 

If I cannot support the BSA without being criticized why should you be allowed to make baseless accusations and not face the same scrutiny?

 

All I seek is a level playing field.

 

 

 

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

> No one in the BSA or even at the council level takes complainers seriously

 

Maybe that's part of the problem.

 

As you always demand of everyone else, Bob, I'm sure that you have facts to back up that statement.

 

 

I would be more than happy to hear your defense of a BSA position, or your thoughts on why someone with a differing view is wrong. But, more often than not, you don't respond with opposing views, just with assertions that people are making things up, fabricating information, being "wild eyed", etc. To make these discussions work, you need to do more than just yell "Bull". The purpose of these forums is to help people understand, not necessarily agree.

 

So, lets get back to the initial thread. I am genuinely interested in why you, or anyone else, think BSA is so much in the news about supposed problems while you really don't hear much of anything about other youth organizations. One poster did some Internet searches, with interesting results. So, what do you think? BSA just a popular target? Other groups just not having the problems BSA has? Hiding them better? Is BSA more "dangerous" than other organizations?

 

I came into this thread figuring that all these groups would see about the same level of problems, but it seems that that might not be the case. Now, BSA is so much larger than everyone else (I think) that just looking at raw numbers isn't going to be accurate, so we need to look at things from more of a "per capita" basis.

 

 

[evmori]

Ed, I don't know where to begin with your post other than recommend you return to basic training and get caught up to where scouting is today, which by the way in the case of charters is pretty much exactly how it was done in 1916. Why it has taken 89 years for you to hear about it is a mystery.

 

The charter states:

"The purposes of the corporation are to promote, through organization, and cooperation with other agencies, the ability of boys to do things for themselves and others, to train them in scoutcraft, and to teach them patriotism, courage, self-reliance, and kindred virtues, using the methods that were in common use by boy scouts on June 15, 1916."

 

I'll bet things that were in common use have changed since then. And I'm not 89 years old, Bob.

 

Whether the BSA owns the units or the COs it would have no effect on what the ACLU complained about, only WHO they complained about.

 

There's where you're wrong, Bob. Part of the issue is the ownership of the unit. According to the ACLU (I don't agree with this) a public school can't own a BSA unit because the BSA discriminates based on religion & sexual preference. The key word being own. They can, however, sponsor a BSA unit because they must give equal access to all groups. Key word sponsor. If the BSA owned the units & the public schools sponsored them, the ACLU would not be able to do anything about it! Once again, comprehension is required. Try to keep up.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Ed

If the BSA did not discriminate the ACLU would not care who owned the unit.

 

 

 

[jkhny]

This is not an "attack" on BSA. It is a recap of facts that anyone else can see. Like it or not, this is what you find when looking at youth organizations. We should be wondering "Why?"

 

You can't MAKE people join Scouting....but you sure can scare them away - and BSA is doing just that. This isn't "image" - these are serious issues. People regularly Google summer camps, education programs, vacation destinations. If I had no history in Scouting, I'd check.

 

Someone noted that people will use any excuse not to give to FOS. Perhaps. But they will use these "excuses" not to join BSA. THEY view them as valid REASONS not to put their son in Scoutng.

 

 

Boys and Girls Clubs is a comparable org in size. A search on Boys and Girls club member arrest gives 619,000 hits

 

But few are relevant - talks bout preventing arrests, crimes against B&G club, unlinked entries. No relevant hits showe din the first few pages.

 

Big Brothers member arrest - had only 31,000 or so - with two relevant entries

 

Boy Scouts, Boy Scout arrest leader, 205,000, 245,000, 315,000

 

OK, high profile cases have occurred

 

BTK had 500,000 hits but only 500 or 700 in adding BTK or Rader to the above. The media were kind in NOT widely reporting the Scout link

 

Smith - whose arrest for distributing child porn WAS horridly embarrassing to BSA had 45,000 hits.

 

But that STILL leaves a huge number.

 

Look at the entries you get for "Boy Scout leader arrest" More than half for Boy Scout leader arrest - are reporting on the arrest of a Boy Scout leader - not some irrelevant issue (cardiac arrest - in connection with the lightning strikes- not good either - or reward offerred for arrest). There were duplicate entries but of 30, there were 9 separate hits - Smith and Rader (expected) Great Neck, Manhattan, Mesa, Indiania, Pocatello, LA , Baltimore only one (Manhattan) seemed "old"

 

This doesn't seem to be media bias - any youth organization would get similar coverage - BSA links are downplayed in many arrests or ignored in many others. I doubt Google rigged its search engine to smear BSA

 

Like it or not, this is what pops up.

 

But instead of viewing all this as the sign of serious and valid issues - it is "image."

 

Well the image of BSA here is abysmal - in valid comparisons to other youth organizations.

 

No amount of "Good Turn for America" stories offset "Boy abused at Scout Camp" when its your son. And THAT is what people will think. It seems that Youth Protection is NOT working when you compare things in BSA to other organizations.

 

This admitedly superficial look may not accurately reflect reality, but it IS what people see. Yet BSA seems reluctant to be transparent and open about this or anything else. Idaho Falls is a history of cover-up and failure which SHOULD be impossible" in BSA. But it happened. ANd those involved sufferred no repurcussions.

 

Ignoring even the abuse cases, recent headlines do NOT reflect an organization that shows "character" or protects your child.

 

This is an issue that SHOULD concern BSA National and the solution is NOT "spinning" stories. It is making sure these things don't happen.

 

 

[evmori]

Ed

If the BSA did not discriminate the ACLU would not care who owned the unit.

 

Well Bob, according to the ACLU the BSA does discriminate. Legally but they do. So unless the BSA changes & let's atheists & homosexuals join, one solution would be for the BSA to take ownership of the units & let public schools & the government sponsor them. I would be very disappointed if the BSA backed down & changed to allow atheists & homosexuals to join, wouldn't you, Bob?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

jkhny is it even possible that you know less about the internet than you do about scouting???

 

Hits do not = incidences

 

Hits are how many times the phrase is found.

 

When I write the phrase Boys Club Leader arrested, I just increased the number of hits, did I increase the number of arrests as well?

 

When you google Scout Leader Arrested you also get articles such as the one about a Utah Policeman who was killed in the line of duty. It telss how he was a Scout Leader and how many Arrests he had made in his carrer. Oh my doesn't that speak badly of the BSA!

 

It also hits on sites for Scouting for all and for protest signs that they suggest to insult the BSA. It also has multiple hits for the same arrest.

 

It all has hits for scout leaders who were claered of accusations.

 

You are a real piece of work. The image of Scouting isn't abysmal...YOUR image of scouting is abysmal.

 

And what have you done other than complain?

 

 

 

[evmori]

jkhny is it even possible that you know less about the internet than you do about scouting???

 

Now there's a Scout-like comment! Courteous & friendly!

 

Bob, I suggest you re-read jkhny's post slowly. Remember comprehension is important.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Ed

 

If someone attacks my friends and family I am not required to be friendly or courteous to the attacker.

 

I am expected to be brave and stand up to them and to be loyal to my friends and family.

 

You in accepting the role of a BSA Commissioner have accepted the responsibility to represent the programs, policies, and procedures of the BSA and yet more often than not you support the opinions of these poster who constantly attack the BSA. Just how do you rationalize that behavior with your job in scouting?

[dan]

This outa be good.

[Bob White]

An intriguing question, isn't it!

[jkhny]

You can't win with some people.

 

He wants facts. Give him facts.

 

Facts aren't right and I don't "understand" - did my post even get read? Yet no facts supporting a counter argument are provided.

 

(Still waiting for responses on Williams salary.....I was wrong wrong wrong and did not understand. After finding out to my surprise I was LOW in my numbers and that this issue HAS come un in criticisms of non-profit leadership. BSA seems to be one of the worst offenders - as noted by others far more expert than I - in provided articles. But no facts refuted. )

 

Insulting your critics and denigrating their pov without countering their arguments and facts is the technique being expertly used by BSA National to deflect attention from any problem that surfaces.

 

One could speculate on how little some know in a stereotypical way denegrating education, accomplishments and education, but you can encounter the same mindset in an adjacent box at the Kenucky Derby, on the Forbes yacht or at a charitable event at the Pierre. There is little correlation. People who are well educated, "succesful" and wealthy can be amazingly blind too. (I'm just waiting for THAT to get turned around on me....lol). The CEO of a large corporation was perfectly comfortable defending his $20 million bonus at his daughter's million (2? 3?)dollar wedding - after he had just laid off 5,000 employees to "cut costs." (And note, with customer service levels plunging as a result - only a short time passed before those workers were rehired.) But then I must simply be "speculating". Couldn't be "first hand" knowledge on my part though, could it?

 

Is it possible I actually know MORE than some about the inner workings of Councils AND BSA National? Is it possible that I have first-hand knowledge of which I speak? Am I actually saying LESS about what I know than I could?

 

 

Blind obedience and uninformed defense does not benefit any organization.

 

Refute the facts and arguments please.

 

Is this all NOT true in BSA? - then please explain the individual incidents for even the first three pages cited for BSA

 

Is it worse elsewhere? - please list relevant events and how many pages were required for that count of individual incidents.

 

Does none of this matter? Do such negative events have NO effect on parents of boys that are considering joining BSA? Please explain and cite similar situations where bad publicity has increased membership in an organization that touts "character."

Bad behavior may boost the career of a Rap performer but we are discussing Scouting.

 

Should a parent feel comfortable about their son joining BSA - with all these issues appearing as problems on a simple web search? (ignore the absolute totals - look at the CONTENT)

 

Why?

 

[evmori]

You in accepting the role of a BSA Commissioner have accepted the responsibility to represent the programs, policies, and procedures of the BSA and yet more often than not you support the opinions of these poster who constantly attack the BSA. Just how do you rationalize that behavior with your job in scouting?

 

I don't consider them attacks. These are people asking questions because they either don't understand something or they want an explanation. I have never professed to have all the answers & there are some questions that have been asked that I, too, would like the answers to. Just because someone is questioning something doesn't mean they are attacking it! The BSA isn't infallible even though some posters think it is. It seems the attacks are coming from those posters who think the BSA does no wrong.

 

That good enough for ya, dan?

 

Bob,

Still waiting on an answer to

"I would be very disappointed if the BSA backed down & changed to allow atheists & homosexuals to join, wouldn't you, Bob?"

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

 

[Bob White]

Ed

I never said I was looking for the BSA to change, my point was that chnaging the values of scouting is the only thing that the ACLU is interested in regardless of who owns the unit.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

Every time time you [madkins007], or jkhny, or prairie scouter, or Ed, toss out any more wild eyed claims about what the BSA should or should not be doing or supposedly is doing that they shouldn't do I will happily say Bull and insist you show evidence.

 

Hey Bob, are you ready to admit that public schools won't be chartering BSA units any more? Recently when someone mentioned that, you said it was "absolutely untrue".

 

I showed you the letters sent by the ACLU, and the response from the BSA where the national director of registration stated that the BSA would re-charter all units chartered to government entities and would not accept such charters in the future:

http://www.aclu-il.org/news/press/000259.shtml

 

Also, there are some BSA council web pages that talk about it:

http://www.stlbsa.org/Common/Home/Partnerships+for+the+Future.htm

http://www.grandcanyonbsa.org/pdf/11814-BSAandPublicSchoolsStatement.pdf

 

So Bob, are you willing to admit that the BSA will no longer (or at least has said it will no longer) grant charters to public schools?