A Christian's view of homosexuality

[tjhammer]

Well Hunt, you're right, that is a different argument. As I said at the onset, I don't necessarily endorse all of Justin's interpretations and wordsmithing as my own, I merely provide them as food for thought that perhaps give pause to the "literalism" argument that the Bible is quite clear on this issue. Let me be clear: I actually do accept Justin's alayisis of the words, and have yet to hear any documented argument against any of his analysis; I distance myself from his remarks only becuase I think in the end it simply doesn't matter if the Bible is accurate on those passages or not.

 

In reality, the Bible verses used for centuries to oppress women are also pretty clear (and far more plentiful than the six that have been related to homosexuals), but in modern day (most) people have decided not to take those verses so literally. Similar, shall we say "re-understandings", of literal Bible verses have have allowed (most of) modern day culture to have a different view of Jews, or slaves, or even disobedient children.

 

But as you say, that's a different argument. In studying this matter, my personal conclusion is this:

 

1) there's no doubt the Bible has been interpreted, in some cases incorrectly, to reflect a worldview of the time (something that has happened over and over again throughout the history of that document, and can be seen today in the "gender-neutralization" of most passages);

 

2) I see no reason why the OT references to homosexuality were not invalidated by Jesus in much the way laws about planting of crops, trimming beards, etc were invalidated. I find it astonishing that homosexuality as a sin was apparently so irrelevant to Jesus that he never mentioned it nor is it ever covered in the Gospels. The references in the NT to homosexuality were all based on Paul's letters, and I'll grant that Paul probably reflects the Jewish view of the time against homosexuality.

 

3) I find Jesus speaking to Peter and his church and clearly stating that more lessons would come in time, and that they were not ready for all lessons at that time, to be a clear indication that the Bible as a living text does (and should) evolve as humanity evolves. I believe we're responsible for making these ethical decisions (to 'bind and loose') in light of the "greatest" commandments Jesus gave, even when it means overturning other scriptural traditions.

 

4) I find absolutely no condemnation for loving, committed, same-sex relationships in the Bible, and perhaps even stories that shine favorably on a few.

 

5) In the end, even if you still view "homosexuality" (not just exploitative or promiscuous relationships) as sinful, I find no justification in the Bible for looking upon gays any more harshly than divorcees, something that much of Christianity has decided to leave up to the personal relationship between the individual and God, without casting stones.

 

Leaving me with a final conclusion, that the religious argument against gays is weak, and really just provides cover for cultural bias (which is changing rapidly).(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

[Prairie_Scouter]

I'm not trying to make light of anyone's belief system, just making the point that it is just that, a belief system, and not necessarily something based on fact.

 

And while some may see arrogance in an attitude that admits to the possibility that some interpretations of the Bible might be off the mark, I think it's laughable to believe that it is totally beyond the realm of possibility.

 

The longevity of a belief has nothing to do with it's accuracy. If that's all it took, then all we'd have to do is find the longest standing religion to find out which one is "right". People believed the earth was flat for a long time. People believed the Earth was the center of the universe for a long time. People thought it was ok to burn people they thought were witches. Public stonings were okeedokee. That doesn't mean that they were right, just because people believed that for a long time.

 

You may not like what legitimate scholars and historians have to say about the Bible, both good and bad, but they're not wrong just because what they say doesn't happen to match your belief system. As I've said many times, debates about the Bible in the context here are debates about belief, not facts.

 

[Hunt]

I think you'd find that most Biblical scholars would not accept the complex gymnastics that the writer had to go through to "explain" all the passages in the Bible about homosexuality. And there is simply no support--none--for the proposition that Jesus, Paul, or any of the writers of the OT or NT would have accepted a loving homosexual relationship. That is simply the injection of a modern point of view.

 

'In the end, even if you still view "homosexuality" (not just exploitative or promiscuous relationships) as sinful, I find no justification in the Bible for looking upon gays any more harshly than divorcees, something that much of Christianity has decided to leave up to the personal relationship between the individual and God, without casting stones."

 

I tend to agree with this, in general. I think some Christians are much too quick to rank sins, and to be horrified by certain sins, but to tolerate others. (For what it's worth, people have gone through similar gymnastics to defend divorce from Biblical condemnation.) On the other hand, just because I say that something you do is a sin, doesn't mean that I'm saying you are a "horrible person," or that other sins aren't bad, too. I know plenty of very good Christian people who, in my opinion, have a particular persistent sin that they don't get rid of.

 

[ronvo]

TJ

 

Thnak you for your calm, reasonable debate. Unfourtunatley I think you are wasting your time trying to convince people who "know" otherwise cause the "bible says so". They will not even try to understand.

 

I belive you practice your word and love your neighbor. Good luck in your studies, I am sure you will make a wonderful priest.

 

From another thread on same subject ED you mention Homosexuality is a choice. Prove it. You have not walked in their shoes.

 

Logically why would anyone subject themselves to the wrath of society and, according to you God, by choosing to be gay?

 

Have you never anguished over something. Can you even begin to imagine what what anguish and pain a person must go through coming to terms with their being gay? No one would choose such a thing. And yes I do believe that pedophiles and their ilk are entirely different and do have a choice.

 

I think it is our own discomfort with others who are different.

 

White, straight men have always had such insecurity and have oppressed others who are diffrent, whether black, brown, red, yellow, female, Jew, Catholic, Muslim, protestant, immigrant, native, Yankee, southerner.

 

It is prejudice pure and simple. Only by "loving one another" such as Christ taught can we overcome this. And if you think gays are the enemy then you better pray for them even more.

 

Remeber thought that prayer won't change God, and it probably won't change the persons you are praying for, but it might change you. I think we all fear that.

 

I also believe that in the end this is what Scouting ideals are about and what we as leaders should be teaching.

 

pax,

ronvo

 

 

 

 

 

[Eagledad]

Generally Jesus spoke in the behaviors that are pleasing to God, not in what are offensive to Him. The many references of sexual or family relationships in the New Testament are always with the man and woman. Even the commandment of honoring thy father and mother is repeated in the New Testament. Clearly Jesus is guiding us in how we should behave to get closer to God, as opposed to giving an endless list of behaviors that are offensive to God.

 

Barry

 

[tjhammer]

Barry... Jesus does specifically comdemn divorce (and other behaviors), though. Odd that we've chosen to "reduce" that sin to a personal matter before God, though escalated being gay, despite no mention of it from Jesus.

 

Ron, thx for your support, but I must correct one thing... I'm not the one studying to be a priest. (Though I imagine my mom would be elated if I were!)

[OldGreyEagle]

Yo, Ronvo, thats a mighty large brush you are using when you say white straight men ....

 

Why not just say the human race sometimes has difficulty dealing with those "different" than themselves.

 

[evmori]

I love my son. Does that make me a homosexual? I also love my wife? Does loving both a male & female make me bi-sexual? The answer to both is no. A homosexual is more than a man being in love with another man & a woman being in love with another woman.

 

Are people born to smoke cigarettes? No. It's a choice. It's a lifestyle just like homosexuality. I have no proof, ronvo. And I'll bet you have no proof it isn't a choice. My opinion & your opinion. Something we are both entitled to.

 

tj,

Jesus didn't condemn all divorce. Read Matthew 19:9, 1Cor 7:11.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[ronvo]

OGE

 

You are, as often, correct, most people in most places have prejudice. And in China my example obviously wouldn't work as I stated it. However I do think it valid for our country and western Europe. Many of course think this IS the world and for most of us on this forum the history we learned in school was wriiten from that persepctive.

 

I don't think Native Americans rellay consider Christopher Columbus as discovering the land he called America.

 

From the fundamentalist Christian point of view - homosexualtiyt is a sin. An it will be hard to change that view. Only thorugh love (agape) will that happen.

 

TJ - my mistake - Though from what you write, I do think you would proabaly make a fine priest. Anglican of course, Rome doesn't allow such things ;^)

 

I confused you with Matt Hill- my apologies to you both.

 

Gay men - they all look alike!

(VERY tongue in cheek no offense)

 

peace to all

ronvo

[ronvo]

Ed

 

Yew we both have our opinions, and I do respect your right to yours. I have no proof just as you don't.

 

However, based on the logic I presented and based on the numbers of persons who are homosexual and what those who ARE gay have stated, MY only choice is to believe that homosexuality is NOT a choice.

 

You also stated

"I love my son. Does that make me a homosexual? I also love my wife? Does loving both a male & female make me bi-sexual? The answer to both is no. A homosexual is more than a man being in love with another man & a woman being in love with another woman."

 

Of course - what is your point here? It is being sexually attracted to member of the same sex and not to the opposite sex.

 

I do believe in my mind - that bisexuality is more likely to be a choice than homosexuality - no proof, no reason, it is just what I think - because I don't really know.

 

pax,

ronvo

 

[Rooster7]

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorwho is forever praised. Amen.

 

Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. Romans 1:24-28

 

Per Justin Cannon: As we see, Paul is talking about heterosexual individuals filled with lust and engaging in homosexual sex, which is contrary to their nature.

 

So the unnatural acts mentioned by Paul are unnatural because Justin is purporting that the aforementioned men and women were heterosexual vice homosexual. In other words, if these particular men and women were actual homosexuals, then their behavior would have been perfectly acceptable...or rather; their acts would not have been unnatural.

 

Hogwash.

 

TJ if you or any other homosexual is going to convict my heart, its not going to be that I am twisting Gods Word to conform to my own prejudices. I have no personal agenda against homosexuals. His Word is plain, homosexuality is a sin.

 

No, if I am to be convicted, its that sometimes I forget that God hates sin, not the sinner. I like to think that I rarely get derailed into this kind of thinking, but I know the human heart is a deceitful thing. I may have made some venomous arguments. If any of my responses appeared to be a personal attack as opposed to a discussion about God's Will for us then I truly apologize. I know that is not what my God (perhaps our God if we are both seeking Him) wants from me.

 

Nevertheless, just as I know that yearnings in my heart, which prompts me to stare at a bikini-wearing twenty-something girl at the beach, is not from God Im convinced that you and many others know in your heart of hearts that whatever desires you have for other men are not from Him as well. No amount of Scripture twisting will convince me otherwise. More importantly, no matter what you may be able to convince yourself and other men to believe, I am confident that God knows what resides in all of our hearts. No words need to be spoken. Our hearts will speak to Him, whether our desires are to be like Him or to seek something else. He cannot be fooled.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[tjhammer]

Rooster, so you're convinced you know what's in my heart, and it's completely contrary to what I have said. That's arrogance superseded only by claiming to know the Divine beliefs of God, IMHO.

 

That's not intended to be an attack, just an observation from this vantage point.

[Rooster7]

I'm suggesting - If your heart is telling you something different than what you have expressed in this forum, a debate with God will be futile. He will not be convinced otherwise...because He knows all.

 

I don't know what's in your heart. However, if youre sincerely searching for God, I find it very difficult to believe that He would allow you to embrace homosexuality unashamedly.

 

I believe God reveals who He is through His Word. I don't understand every verse. However, the bible's teachings on homosexualtiy are clear.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Eagledad]

>>Odd that we've chosen to "reduce" that sin to a personal matter before God, though escalated being gay, despite no mention of it from Jesus.

[tjhammer]

Barry - I'm not sure I understand... my point was that some people have escalated the "sin" of homosexuality well beyond other "sins"; my comment had nothing to do with God's judgment.

 

Rooster --

 

I'm suggesting - If your heart is telling you something different than what you have expressed in this forum, a debate with God will be futile. He will not be convinced otherwise...because He knows all.

Oh, make no mistake, I've never thought I was in a debate with God.I don't know what's in your heart.That's progress, because a few moments ago you were convinced of what was really in my heart. (And you still seem suspect as to whether what I'm expressing in this forum is what I really believe. Very odd.)However, if youre sincerely searching for God, I find it very difficult to believe that He would allow you to embrace homosexuality unashamedly. Why question my sincerity? More importantly, you've already established there's no room for a third person's perspective between my heart and God, regardless of what you "find difficult to believe".I believe God reveals who He is through His Word.I don't. At least not the "Word" as literally interpreted in the Bible.I don't understand every verse.Nor do I, and I'll concede you've spent much more time studying them than I have, though I don't see how that makes you any more of an authority on something you agree is so personal.However, the bible's teachings on homosexuality are clear.I disagree, I believe there is considerable likelihood for misinterpretation and translation based on cultural bias. Though I also believe in the end it doesn't matter whether the current wording of the Bible is based on an accurate translation. I see Jesus saying that the lessons and laws of the Bible are subject to change, and I see how Christianity has already changed scriptural tradition on many other things (subservience of women, etc) to reflect an evolved ethos.

 

Do you believe the Word of God is subject to change? If so, how does that happen? If not, how do you explain modern views that differ from ancient views on many fundamental tenants of God's Word?