OA ceremonies and church sponsored units

[mmhardy]

If the OA ritual is done with the respect and proper attention then you can't help with getting a spiritual feeling from it. If you have ever attended a native American pow-wow the feeling can be very similar.

 

 

 

[wojauwe]

John-in-KC

True God is mentioned but not in a way that would represent any specific dogmatic system.It's very open,and like I said scout oath and law is the base

and reverent is part of that.mmhardy was right on, when the proper atmosphere of solemnity is acheived you will find a religous experiance on your own terms.I've had the honor of observing all 4 ceremonies from preordeal to Vigil over a 60hr.period and yes God is spoken of but is not defined.

 

[wojauwe]

John-in-KC

True God is mentioned but not in a way that would represent any specific dogmatic system.It's very open,and like I said scout oath and law is the base

and reverent is part of that.mmhardy was right on, when the proper atmosphere of solemnity is acheived you will find a religous experiance on your own terms.I've had the honor of observing all 4 ceremonies from preordeal to Vigil over a 60hr.period and yes God is spoken of but is not defined.

 

[arrowman168]

"I'm not a big fan of OA ceremonies when they celebrate multiple Gods and talk about animal deities. These ideas are against my faith. I must assume some church sponsors feel the same way."-Rooster7

 

This is just total BS. I dont whant to sound mean. I prefom ceremonies and not to get into anything the belongs in the safe OA section there is no meantion what so ever of multiple Gods or animal deities. If a parent or church leader has an issue with the ceremonies they can sit in on one if they dont get in the way. I have seen it done myself. And also, troop chartering orgs. have NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS AT ALL. Just beacuse a troop is chartered by a chruch, the scout dose not have to belive in that faith. Also, to coment on what stlscouter said, in order to be a Boy Scout you must belive in a High Power. Also, the ceremonies do not mock Native American religon. In fact, there is only two, count 'em, two metions of God in the Pre-Ordeal, Ordeal, and Brotherhood Ceremonies. I can not say anything about the Vigil Honor Cermony as I am a Brotherhood member.Just one last thing, I do not undresant why Rooster7 keeps bgring up the subject of Church sponsered Troops. The Chruch dose not run the troop and its belive systems do not affect it.

 

WWW,

 

arrowman168

[Hunt]

"I do not undresant why Rooster7 keeps bgring up the subject of Church sponsered Troops. The Chruch dose not run the troop and its belive systems do not affect it."

 

Well, in fact a Church does run the troop if it's the CO. Some churches (such as LDS) use Scouting as their own youth program. Thus, it's not surprising that a church might be concerned if it felt some part of BSA's program was contrary to the church's beliefs. What's more, religious parents, told that Scouting is nonsectarian, might well be concerned if they heard that "secret" rituals had some kind of religious elements. So it's reasonable for people to ask the question--and personally, I'm satisfied with the answers.

[russdwright]

Let me start by saying I was tapped out twice and never even went to Ordeal ... I kick myself to this day for not doing it ...

 

I know that the first time I saw an OA ceremony, I was enthralled by it. Even though I am a devout Christian, I am also (according to my adoptive parents) part Native American. When I had the opportunity to join OA, I saw it as a chance to learn more about a heritage that has fascinated me since I was a child.

 

Yes, I am aware that many Native American tribes have polytheistic beliefs, but I am also grounded enough in my faith as a Christian to not be effected by these things.

 

I sincerely hope that when I get back into Scouting I will have the opportunity to be tapped out again. When that happens, I will make sure I make it to Ordeal. Besides, I have my adopted grandfather's footsteps to follow (Vigil as well as a Silver Beaver)

[Rooster7]

arrowman168,

 

Have you considered the possibility that your experiences are not mine? Second, I did not start this thread. I responded to the question.

[Bob White]

I have never witnessed anything in an OA ceremony that was in the slightest way offensive to me as a Christian. I'd be happy to check withge the priest in our diocese who is the council's OA Advisor and see how he feels about this but I am pretty confident he doesn't see any conflict.

[Trevorum]

Several pages ago, Rooster said, "Christians are not the only ones that believe homosexuality is wrong. I'd venture to say there's probably a few atheists that feel it is wrong too. He then asked, "I wonder what the Indian cultures have to say about homosexuality.

 

This is an excellent question, and I want to thank Rooster for asking it. Merlyn obliquely addressed it but then the thread went elsewhere. I would like to more directly adress Rooster's question.

 

In contrast to Rooster's opening statement, by and large it is only the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition which has theological trouble with human homosexuality. Other, "non-western" religions and cultures are, generally speaking, much more accepting of the variability in human sexual expression.

 

Among many of the North American Native Peoples, the so-called "berdache" was a recognized "third" gender role. Biological males were allowed to dress as females and interact with society in a distinctly non-male role. From the descriptions of early explorers an ethnologists, we would today label these people as homosexuals, bisexuals, and/or transgendered. These persons fulfilled a special role in society, were accepted by society and were often afforded a magical, or specially empowered role.

 

Interestingly, a similar situation exists in modern India (you did ask about Indians! ), where the third gender is called hijra. Unlike Western society, where transgenders often keep their lifestyle secret, hijras in India have an active and celebrated lifestyle and are often employed as entertainers with magical powers.

 

Finally, even in these societies it is generally only biological males which are afforded the opportunity to participate in society as a third gender. In male-dominated cultures, homosexual females were/are forced into traditional female gender roles (ie, reproduction) regardless of their personal feelings. Ironically, only in the sexually repressed western cultures are homosexual females afforded the opportunity to express themselves.

 

If this topic is of interest to you, there is much information available on the web concerning the berdache, hijras and third genders. As always, material found on the web varies in reliability, so I would recommend following up with some of the published material than can be found cited at the end of the more reputable articles. Hope this helps.

[stlscouter]

Tre-

 

Interesting post -notice (i did a google or two) all of these folks are allowed to be "different" and are assigned (recogized) by their society a role or niche they are allowed to fill-a recgonizable role. I can only imagine what the outcry in this society would be if the "different" people were assigned such a specific recognizable role.

[Trevorum]

stlscouter, you are correct. In our culture we no longer find it acceptable to assign roles based on biology (at least for the most part). Women, who were once extremely limited in their life's ambitions, may now choose to be astronauts instead of only flight attendants; soldiers and politicians instead of wives and mothers. Similarly, African Americans are no longer forced to serve only in menial roles as cooks, laborers, or servants. We put a cultural priority on personal choice.

 

While our culture increasingly rejects the notion of gender roles of any type, the very interesting thing about the traditional cultures I mentioned above is that the berdache and the hijras are actually thought of as a third gender, neither masculine nor feminine. This is extremely hard for many people within our shared Judeo-Christian-Islamic heritage to comprehend or accept.