OA ceremonies and church sponsored units

[wojauwe]

 

ok let's get to the basics here. if you get any type of a religous impression,from an OA ceremony it was totally of your making.

The OA is very carefull not to include any native american or any other religous elements in their ceremonies.There are no deities represented.There are human Principles who personify aspects of leadership and service.There is a deep respect for the out doors and nature but no worship.

The OA ceremonies are tottally built on the scout law and oath and the most admirable qualities of being a good scout.

Please educate your self before you bring the OA into your religous witch hunt.We are the brotherhood of cheerfull service and that is what our ceremonies reflect.No Gods are called on whether christian or pagan.You are given plenty of room to reflect on your own personal religous beleifs in the Solemn atmosphere of a well done ceremony.But you are never fed anybody's Dogma or deities.

[John-in-KC]

Woujawe,

 

Without crossing the line to safeguarded, go back and look at the Ordeal and Brotherhood ceremonies: Your sentence "No Gods are called on whether christian or pagan" is flat out wrong. I will simply say: READ THE CEREMONIES. You'll see.

 

As for all other folk:

 

I'm a Christian. I've been in the Order since I was 14; I'll be 49 in October. I had no problem whatsoever with my son entering the Order when he was eligible.

 

Remember: Any parent, leader, or clergyman who desires more information about the Order in regard to personal or denominational religious beliefs may contact the local Council. The professional staff (and the volunteer Advisors of the lodge) will go to great lengths to deal with mis-perceptions.

 

 

[mmhardy]

Since the troop is chartered by a church, its up to the church to decide to hold OA elections. BSA is a youth program that a chartering org subscibes to. If they don't want to participate in the OA program then so be it. However it would be a shame to base that choice on ignorance.

 

 

[scoutldr]

Our camp chaplain is a Catholic priest and OA Vigil member.

[Hunt]

I wasn't in OA as a Scout, and so I don't know that much about it--it was even more secret then. I don't really want or need to know more about it-except I do have some conerns about its religious nature if my son gets elected into it. I guess there is a natural tension between such concerns and the desire to keep the details private (if not exactly secret). At this point, I probably would not go to the Council for more details, but would rely on the assurances of people I trust that there is no conflict.

[Rooster7]

It's entirely possible that all "sanctioned" OA ceremonies are non-religious in nature. I can't say. I am not a member. Regardless, I have seen call out ceremonies conducted at summer camp and at some troop meetings. They were spiritual in nature, and they did call upon Pagan gods, but perhaps this was merely the work of some creative boys.

 

wojauwe,

 

Please educate your self before you bring the OA into your religious witch hunt.

 

Your indignation is duly noted. It's unnecessary and insulting, but I recognize your disdain for any discussion that might put the OA in a negative light. Please try to remember that your experience may not reflect that of every BSA member, past and present.

[SemperParatus]

You know you are taking things a little too seriously if you ascribe religious significance to OA. It's just another part of the 'game of scouting'. The stories and ceremonies, created from the imagination of man, are theme-based around native American culture, still I would suspect even the Lenni Lenape would not recognize or approve of most of the imagery as being in any way authentic. There is no worship of deities by participants. The 'injun' stuff is all in harmless fun. Our CO (Catholic Church) has no issues here. The Priest is a Brotherhood member from his youth and has attended some recent Ordeal ceremonies with me.

 

 

 

 

[stlscouter]

I am a vigil member of the OA and for years have helped ceremonial teams prepare for their ceremonies-both ordeal and brotherhood. Both ceremonies include the Scout oath and law and in addition refer to .."and guidance of our Maker".

 

While none of these references interfere with almost any church, I have seen young men go way beyond just "playing" a part to the extent of gowing long hair year round so as to be in "character" when needed-also seen Mohawk haircuts, the wearing of Indian jewelry, in short some have become totally immersed in to the "Indian" culture.

 

My original concern though, still stands and that is that in some way some young men may be "practicing" a culture and spiritual significance to which they appear to legally defined "Indians" as mocking behavior. We (ceremonial teams and their adult partners) have been told that some face paint designs are forbidden, pan-indian regalia (told to use this word instead of costume)is out, settle on one tribe and be true to it's dress. I, personally don't have any problem with these injunctions.

 

But, when asked by a member of AIM (American Indian Movement) how I would feel if They dressed a person in vestments and a mitre and called him mighty chief and placed plced pleople in a bishops attire at other places in a circle how I would feel about it Couldn't answer-I'm not Catholic. But it did present quite a mental image.

 

 

[SemperParatus]

No surprise there...being offended by someone, something or anything is America's national past time.

[scoutingagain]

Have to agree with Semper here.

 

So far;

 

Some are offended by having to participate in ceremonies they believe are contrary to their faith.

 

Some are offended by the implication that the ceremonies involve anything that could be offensive.

 

Some are offended that the ceremonies make fun of their culture and history.

 

Some are offended because they cannot be elected to membership to the OA.

 

I know of some who have been offended because they have not been elected.

 

I appologize if I have offended anyone with this post.

 

SA

[stlscouter]

Semper- pastime? Multimillion dollar industry!

 

There are also those who just want to be offensive and stick their thumb in your eye while complaining that you can't see their point.

 

Could name names but..a scout is courteous and kind.

[Rooster7]

Don't lump all viewpoints together. One's perspective either represents truth and logic, or it does not. So I challenge you to listen.

 

Second, it's a matter of degree. I may be offended by some OA ceremonies, but I'm not lobbying against the BSA either. I'm just not a big fan of the OA.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[SemperParatus]

"truth and logic"

 

Can't there be truth without logic?

 

And logic without truth?

 

Can a human perspective ever be wholly true? or wholly logical?

 

 

[stlscouter]

example - if you throw a bowling pin in the air and stand under it as it comes down-truth wins! but was there any logic involved? I could tell you what the Scout told me when he did it but I'm still scratching my head(This message has been edited by stlscouter)

[Hunt]

It's true that everything will offend somebody, and that some people are offended by everything.

 

However, that doesn't mean that nobody is ever justified in taking offense. I can certainly imagine that it would be offensive to Native Americans if symbols with important religious significance were used for some other purpose. It sounds as though OA is taking steps to avoid it.

(Note: I was reading recently about Hopi kachina ceremonies. Many of them used to be open to the public for viewing, but they have now mostly been closed because the participants felt their beliefs were not being respected. Apparently the last straw was the use of kachina figures as characters in an issue of Marvel Comics' "NFL SuperPro.")