Legalizing Illegal immigrants

[BrentAllen]

Ah, the virtuous middle. Great compromisers and appeasers. Able to see clearly what others fail to see at all. Followers of the infamous Neville Chamberlain.

Me, I prefer extremists - like those brave souls who signed the Declaration of Independence. Now those were some extremists! Or Patrick Henry.

At the time of the Revolution, there were about 1/3 who wanted independence, 1/3 wanted to remain loyal to England, and 1/3 in the middle. Luckily, the "extremists" were exactly that, and the rest, as they say, is history.

[Hunt]

Most of the Founding Fathers were hardly ideological extremeists. Those who were (like Patrick Henry) were very much displeased with how the new nation was organized. You might take a look at the French Revolution for a look a what happens when the real extremists run a revolution.

 

Referring to people who favor compromise as "appeasers" is a good example of what's wrong with extremeists.

[OldGreyEagle]

As I understand it, the reason we have a bicameral legislature is because the more populous states wanted to base representation on population. The less populated states wanted to be sure they weren't trampled by the more populous states, so a compromise (forgive the use of the dirty word) was reached. We have the Senate and House of Representatives. I think the system works rather well. At least I have never heard it decried because it was a compromise. Keeping the three branches of goverment equal through the system of checks and balances was all one big compromise, and one with genius at that. If more people would learn to compromise, wars wouldnt happen, but since there are extremists, they are necessary. Just to be sure I am not misunderstood, I understand that there are reasons why wars must occur and would much rather live in the country that has the number one military rather than number two.

 

 

 

 

[BrentAllen]

I never said compromise was a dirty word. I said those in the middle were "great compromisers and appeasers." (Sorry, Hunt - liberals don't like being called liberals either, but at the end of the day, that is what they are). From my viewpoint, those in the middle hail the ability to compromise as the greatest of all virtues. To them, if you can't compromise, you are an extremist. There is no principle too important or sacred which can't be subjugated in order for them to achieve compromise.

 

I, on the other hand, have certain principles which I am not willing to compromise. That makes me a conservative and an extremists. Hey - you guys are in the Boy Scouts of America, which refused to compromise with the atheists and homosexuals (we stood on our principles), so I guess that makes you extremists as well. :-) Welcome to the club!

[packsaddle]

The Great Compromise (or Roger Sherman's Connecticut Compromise) is a great topic here. There were actually two parts to the compromise, both dealing with representation issues. The first had to do with heavily populated versus non-heavily populated states. That led to the bicameral legislature that we have today.

The second part had to do with slavery. Specifically, how to count slaves. If they were considered property they couldn't be counted for representation. However, if they were considered citizens, well, the South couldn't abide by that. But the South DID want them to count toward representation...to have it's cake and eat it too, so-to-speak. The compromise allowed the consititution to be ratified by the slave states. For every 5 slaves, the South could claim three for the purpose of representation and taxation. The anti-slavery people had to swallow a lot to get the Constitution. The extremists in the South held the rest of the colonies hostage to their demands and in the end, got part of what they wanted in the compromise. I suppose BrentAllen's sentiment applies here.

[Trevorum]

Brent. You're wrong. I, and most other liberals, take great pride in being liberal and being called a liberal. It is only to conservatives that the word has taken on a perjorative meaning.

 

From Dictionary.com:

 

liberal ( P ) Pronunciation Key (lbr-l, lbrl)

adj.

 

1. a. Not limited to or by established, traditional, orthodox, or authoritarian attitudes, views, or dogmas; free from bigotry.

 

b. Favoring proposals for reform, open to new ideas for progress, and tolerant of the ideas and behavior of others; broad-minded.

 

c. Of, relating to, or characteristic of liberalism.

 

d. Liberal Of, designating, or characteristic of a political party founded on or associated with principles of social and political liberalism, especially in Great Britain, Canada, and the United States.

 

2. a. Tending to give freely; generous: a liberal benefactor.

 

b. Generous in amount; ample: a liberal serving of potatoes.

 

Personally, I'm glad to be know as one who is "free from bigotry", "generous", "open to new ideas", and "broad-minded".

 

 

[BrentAllen]

Earth to Trevorum, Earth to Trevorum...

You expect anyone reading your comment to believe that? Liberals running in national elections can't get far enough away from the term "liberal!" They all try to convince the voters they are moderates, because they know being tagged a liberal in a national election will cause defeat. That is how Bill Clinton won - he convinced the public he was a moderate. His wife will try to pull the same stunt, but I don't think she will be nearly as successful.

Question - is Hillary a liberal? If so, is she proudly proclaiming it? According to your post, John Kerry should have been proud when it was pointed out he was the most liberal Senator in Congress, instead of fighting to shed that label. If your point is true, then why is Howard Dean out there trying to convince his party it is ok to admit being a liberal? (I hope he succeeds in this mission!)

[packsaddle]

One answer to that is not enough attention is paid to the dictionary when people use the term. In many respects of Trevorum's dictionary definitions, the liberal qualities are also true conservative qualities. However, some persons have successfully planted pejorative connotations to the term 'liberal' and, recognizing this, people who are quite reasonable, knowledgeable, and who do not take on those pejorative qualities therefore acknowledge the unfortunate reality and do not apply the term 'liberal' to themselves.

 

There is another reason as well. Persons to whom the qualities Trevorum lists apply tend not to apply 'terms' to other persons, thereby believing the term explains something about those persons. As he said, they're not bigoted.

 

I think another partial reason that the so-called 'libertarians' chose that moniker is to escape the pejorative sense heaped on 'liberal'. Most of my 'libertarian' friends (and I have quite a few) have few philosophical differences with me nor, unless I am mistaken, Trevorum. And, fact is, few of us can be categorized easily with any of these labels. Labels are no substitution for an idea.

 

Therefore, as I have tried to explain numerous times in the past, application of a term is an empty gesture. It has no substance except to invest in the prejudices that the listener may attach to the term. Either way, the idea is lost. Sad.

[Trevorum]

I think that politicians from both ends of the spectrum will seek to have themselves labeled as "moderates" in order to capture the great middle ground. That political strategy does not detract from their fundemental philosophies.

 

Regardless, I did not couch my statement in terms of national politics. There are more dimensions to being liberal or conservative than national elections (although those certainly get the highest profile coverage).

 

And so, I fully stand by my statement, that I am glad to be known as a person who is "free from bigotry", "generous", "open to new ideas", and "broad-minded". To my way of thinking, those are good things. And fully compatible with all aspects of the Scout Law and Scout Oath.

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Well, our current president managed to convince enough people that he was moderate in his views to get himself placed into office. And, if you ever watch a conservative trying to get votes in front of more liberal groups, you never, ever, see them use the word "conservative", so that game is played by both sides. In the last election, Bush played to the extreme right, but his message in more liberal areas was that he was more moderate. Kerry played to the extreme left, but his message in more conservative areas was that he was more moderate. Label the president whatever you want; I'd be more interested in seeing the record of how many of the campaign promises he made in more moderate states he's kept. Conservative? You certainly can't label his administration fiscally conservative.

 

Labels don't matter. I believe in something that an old PoliSci professor told me a long time ago, and that is, the job of any politician is to get elected. What they do to get elected is immaterial. If they get elected, their job is to get re-elected. In between, they do as little as possible to anger their base. Everything else is window dressing.

[scoutldr]

When you are generous with your own money, it's called "liberal".

 

When you are generous with MY money, it's called "stealing".

[BrentAllen]

Bush convinced the country he was a moderate?? I thought Bush and his buddies (Rumsfeld, Rove, etc...) were a bunch on NeoCons! When asked what type Supreme Court nominee he would seek, he stated in front of the world that he wanted someone like Scalia or Thomas. Doesn't sound like a moderate to me. No, Bush was elected as a conservative. Unfortunately, he has acted like a moderate in office (fiscally, anyway).

Regardless, I'm glad all you liberals are "broad-minded" and "open to new ideas" enough to join a group as conservative as the Boy Scouts of America. I'm surprised, but glad.

[Trevorum]

Brent,

 

It's amusing that you see the BSA as conservative. I don't see it that way at all. I believe BSA is more mainstream than either wing wants to admit. Sure, there are some high profile issues in which BSA takes a stance that is aligned with the political right (these include bias against gays and atheists), but there are also key components of BSA's philosphy which are much more aligned with the political left. These include respect for the environment and conservation, and treading lightly on our earth (LNT). The right typically doesn't have too much respect for those values.

 

I do suspect that, while the country as a whole is split 50-50, BSA adults are probably about 60-40. I attribute a lot of this 'lean to the right' as being self-selected by BSA. That is, by fiat, BSA actively excludes a whole bunch of people on the left who can be described as free-thinkers. I think that's too bad. Those potential Scouts and Scouters could contribute significantly to our movement.

 

As a side note, it is interesting is that originally (back in the days of Seton, et al), BSA was seen as a radical social movement, far on the political left. It has only been recently, as the political right has attempted to co-opt patriotism, that BSA has been percieved to be conservative.

 

 

[Rooster7]

I think its a little bizarre that anyone could imply that Bush portrayed himself as something other than a conservative. But if it makes you feel better i.e. Bush was elected TWICE because he fooled America into believing that he really wasnt a conservative, then more power to you. By the way, say "hi" to Santa for me.

 

Personally, I find labels to be quite useful in that they save time. If I tell you that I am a conservative, you can quickly summarize that theres a better than average chance that I

 

am pro-life

approve of vouchers and/or tax deductions for those who seek alternatives to public schools

am inclined to believe that environmental concerns are overplayed

favor tax breaks for businesses which stimulate the economy

object to laws which appease special interest groups while ignoring the desires of the majority

approve of prayer in public forums including schools

loathe jurists that re-interpret laws and the Constitution to achieve their own ends vice the will of the people

believe the government should find ways to support traditional families

support law enforcement

oppose probation for convicted felons

despise entitlement programs

am not inclined to believe that individuals prone toward certain sexual acts should be treated as a protected class

 

Now obviously, this list is not comprehensive or all inclusive. But its a good bet that most conservatives would agree with most of the above. Its also a good bet that most liberals would reject most of the above. So while youre free to reject labels, I welcome them. Give me a label and Ill deal with the exceptions.

 

[BrentAllen]

Amusing? I don't see how anyone can see the BSA as anything other than a conservative organization. Let's look at the issues that define liberal vs conservative. Religion and homosexuality should be enough to end the debate, but let's go further. Guns - Liberals hate them; the BSA is teaching boys how to shoot rifles and shotguns. Helping those less fortunate - liberals believe in using taxes to redistribute wealth, to take from the rich and give to the poor; the BSA teaches to volunteer to help others (as do conservatives). Environment - liberals are environmentalists (leave the forests alone); conservatives are conservationists (believe in renewable resources). As a Life member of both the NRA and Safari Club International, I've put more money into conservation through taxes on hunting licenses, rifles, hunting gear and ammo than any liberal environmentalist I know. Finally, liberals believe the government is there to solve your problems; the BSA teaches self-sufficiency.

You like definitions, so let's look at "conservative"

 

conservative ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-srv-tv)

adj.

Favoring traditional views and values; tending to oppose change

n.

One favoring traditional views and values.

A supporter of political conservatism.

 

Sounds like the definition of Scouting to me - TIMELESS VALUES

 

As opposed to the definition of "liberal" - the BSA IS limited to or by established, traditional authoritarion attitudes. That sort of excludes the BSA from being liberal, don't you think?