Legalizing Illegal immigrants

[BrentAllen]

Immigration is a political issue, not a religious issue. Please don't confuse the two.

President Bush has proposed documenting the illegals and issuing them a 3-year work permit. He has never promised waving a wand and making them legal.

Controlling immigration is a good thing. Anyone else live in a fast growing county, where the schools are overcrowded, and every year more trailers are parked in what used to be the playground? Do your property taxes keep going up and up each year, to pay for more school rooms and more teachers? This is the terrible result of uncontrolled growth.

Personally, I would like to see an immigration policy similar to Australia, and most countries around the world: When you can document you have a job waiting for you - a job that is not wanted by an American citizen, then you can enter the country.

Unfortunately, nothing is going to change until a terrorist brings a bomb across the border and kills thousands of Americans (at which time the liberals will be the first to scream about the government not controlling the borders). Or maybe when our health system goes broke from providing free health care to all the illegals, we will get serious about it. Anyone know how much it costs for that Mexican woman to come across the border and have her baby? Do you think she or her family is paying that bill? The fact is the illegals don't have insurance and they don't go to the doctor. They go to the emergency room, where they can't be refused service, and they leave the bill to the hospital. Many hospitals in rural areas are going out of business because of this.

Now, how much is that cheap fruit REALLY costing us?

 

[Torveaux]

As a legal immigrant myself, I get very upset about all of the illegals.

 

Illegals do not pay most taxes as they generally are paid in cash, under the table. They do pay sales taxes, but much of the money they earn is returned to Mexico to prop up their flagging economy. There are plenty of anecdotal stories about immigrants from other areas, but the largest influx comes from Mexico.

 

The borders need to be physically closed and at the same time the system for guest workers needs to be implemented. There should be an amnesty program for those currently here: they have a fixed period of time to surrender to authorities on their own and be deported or they will be tracked down over the next few years and get permanently deported (the difference is that in my scenario, those deported could still apply for guest worker permits in their home country and return provided they had a clean record here and had a job waiting permanent deportation means they cannot legally immigrate ever. I would treat the appearance of those permanently deported back on US soil to be tantamount to espionage and treat them as such). The INS could spend more energy tracking current illegals if they did not have so much work to do processing those flooding across the open borders. The Border Patrol could be smaller if the border had a physical obstruction.

[packsaddle]

I remember some discussion about this leading to a separatist movement? I note the recent (albeit kooky) development regarding Christian Exodus:

http://christianexodus.org/

Poor South Carolina, as if those folks don't have enough to worry about:

http://www.leagueofthesouth.net/static/homepage/ls-intro.html?MDPROSID=96b6aeb600f114261693e2700d3022b6

also claiming to have a biblical base.

 

The two groups have now discovered each other and plan to cooperate to seek their common goal of taking over South Carolina politically and then seceeding from the Union. The LOS would then continue its quest to reestablish the Confederacy. Illegal immigrants hardly pose any such threat that I can see. On the contrary, every one of them that goes to South Carolina or similar states may well raise the average intelligence in their new home. I only wish they could arrive legally.

 

[Kahuna]

Constitutionally, it really isn't clear whether the founders intended to gives states the ability to secede. Logically, if you can join something voluntarily, you can leave it voluntarily, but there are lots of issues that arise out of that. Anyway, the country fought a war in the 1860's to establish that seceded states could be brought back by force. I think that applies to both South Carolina and Hawai'i.

[Novice_Cubmaster]

Aloha kakahiaka, Kahuna!

 

If Hawai'i had better border control and kept folks like Dole and Spreckels out,

maybe the Kingdom would still be ruling the islands (and Hawai'i wouldn't need to secede).

I guess we'd be up to Kamehameha XV or so by now.

 

Perhaps the US getting overrun by illegal immigrants is just karma.

 

Novice Cubmaster

 

[Kahuna]

Aloha Kakou, Novice CM!

 

Same thing could be said of the tribes living on the mainland when the Pilgrims showed up!

 

Actually, the direct Kamehameha line had died out long before the fall of the Kingdom of Hawai'i, so it probably wouldn't be a Kamehaha.

[Hunt]

"There is a penalty for hiring illegal aliens?"

 

Yes, it can keep you from becoming Attorney General of the United States.

 

"Immigration is a political issue, not a religious issue. Please don't confuse the two."

 

Says who? How is it different from any other issue in that respect? I submit that the only difference is that the so-called "Christian Right" takes such a blatantly non-Christian approach to this issue that they'd prefer that the religious and moral dimensions be ignored.

[scoutingagain]

"(at which time the liberals will be the first to scream about the government not controlling the borders)."

 

The current administation has pretty much opened our southern border to all commers that are willing to pick up a mop and pail to clean up New Orleans and the Gulf Coast. I agree, we'll all be more secure once those bleeding heart liberals currently occupying the White House out.

 

SA

 

 

[Rooster7]

I submit that the only difference is that the so-called "Christian Right" takes such a blatantly non-Christian approach to this issue that they'd prefer that the religious and moral dimensions be ignored.

 

One Question:

 

What is the Bible teaching or mandate that says a country has a moral obligation to open its borders to all foreigners and treat those new comers as equal partners?

 

Personally, Im not sure where I stand on the immigration issue. I definitely believe that we need to control our borders better. However, I fail to see how the Christian Right can be condemned for their stance on this issue. Id like to see that demonstrated a little better with specifics, as opposed to a blanket smear.

 

FYI

 

Zogby Poll of California Voters on Immigration:

 

62% say immigration makes education reform more difficult;

67% oppose driver's licenses for illegal immigrants;

72% oppose giving reduced tuition for illegal immigrants;

83% of immigrant citizens say jobs to foreigners only if no Americans available;

65% of black Americans favor a moratorium on legal immigration.

 

[Rooster7]

Okay Hunt I went back and saw your goats and sheep comment. In regard to this debate, it has some validity especially when discussing individuals.

 

Yet, Im not sure how or if it applies to governmental policies. These policies were not created to harm, but to protect. Are not governments supposed to create policies which secure the interests of its people? In a perfect world, governments can afford to create policies that look out for the interests of everyone from every nation. However, we dont live in a perfect world. With that said, are immigration policies evil or are they just realistic?

 

As individuals, we are taught by Gods Word to turn the other cheek. Yet, many Christians support strong anti-crime laws which demand that offenders be imprisoned. Are these laws immoral? Are Christians who support such laws turning their back on their faith?

 

[Hunt]

To try to make my point in a less hostile-sounding way, I think that if one is going to argue tht the country should be run according to Christian principles, you can't pick and choose which of those principles you're going to follow. Jesus' teachings make it clear that caring for the poor was a high priority for him--by contrast, he doesn't talk much about enforcing morality. Certainly, from a Christian point of view there is no difference between the poor here in America and the poor elsewhere. "Let's take care of our own first" is a natural human reaction, but it's not exactly what Jesus says to do--he says to take care of "the least of these." Now, how to translate those ideas into national policy isn't easy--but the same is true of other ideas that some have no trouble saying should simply be enacted into national law.

To put it another way, I'm willing to be convinced that keeping floods of immigrants out of America is the best way to improve the average well-being of the world's poor, because it keeps the U.S. economy strong. However, Christian doctrine would not allow me to agree that the poor of America are more important than poor people elsewhere.

[Rooster7]

Hunt,

 

I agree.

 

However, Im not sure every biblical precept can or ought to be transferred to a government policy or rule of law, even if Christians possessed the authority to do so. For example:

 

Jesus tells us to turn the other cheek. I understand this to mean that I should not seek retribution. So for me, personally, I know I need to be more self-sacrificing. That is to say, I should not be vengeful towards those who have done me harm. But does this mean I should never support a government that would implement the death penalty for a child killer? Its not so clear cut to me under these circumstances.

 

Furthermore, the apostle Paul had this to say about government authority. Perhaps illegal aliens should take it to heart.

 

1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. Romans 13:1-3

 

[BrentAllen]

"Immigration is a political issue, not a religious issue. Please don't confuse the two."

 

Says who?

 

Uh - that would be the Constitution. Please show me where any church is allowed to make law. I like to think of the US not as a Christian nation, but as a God-fearing nation.

Churches have plenty of avenues for helping the poor - it's called missionary work. I guess you (Hunt) would use taxpayer money from Jews, Muslims, Buddhists and aetheists to fund charity work in the name of Jesus Christ. I don't think that would sit very well with most of this country - even the "Christian Right." That is why this is a political issue and not a religious one.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Close the borders?

 

I believe Jonahs story for more than one reason.

 

Jonah was told to go to the heathen and tell them to repent. He refused, went the other way, and got himself thrown overboard and swallowed by a whale before he decided to follow God's word. He then went forward dripping in whale slime and entered the great city at a fast clip. He screamed as he ran through it that they should 'repent!'. Then, he went up on a hill, sat down and waited for God's wrath to descend on the wicked foreigners. His thoughts read kind of like this, 'They will not hear me because they think I am crazy. I have finally and surely defeated God by slopping through what he wanted me to do'. But they repented and God held firm to his word and a surprised Jonah fumed, 'Why would my God want those people for his own when he has me?'

 

We are different than our neighbors because we have most of the wealth of the world. Should we purchase the Great Wall of China and place it along the Mexican border? Then, if we are still predisposed to helping the poor, we could sprinkle bags of coins down on them? Do we kill our enemies so they will not frighten us? Do we try to work with our neighbors instead? Does God really want us to befriend peasants? We are in a unique situation in all of history. There are more countries in the world than ever before. One reason is that we have not killed or enslaved everyone. We may have found ways to take their resources and we may have found ways for them to rule themselves and to engage in the world economy. As a nation, we have been both good and bad to other nations. God also tries to deal with nations but it is universally true that God deals with individuals. I wander if Jonah was a liberal or a conservative? I imagine that God doesn't measure one's label as much as one's heart or true inner motives. We would like to underscore our differences but God doesnt see us that way.

 

 

FB(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)(This message has been edited by Fuzzy Bear)

[scoutingagain]

I havn't seen anyone talk about closing the borders. What most of us are asking is to control the borders and control immigration. My frustration is not with those that come here to seek a better life. Heck if I could earn 5X - 10X my current salary in Canada, I'd probably think about working north of the border for a few years myself, and I'm not starving and have a roof over my head. My frustration is with the sheer incompetence of the current administration. By suspending the Davis Bacon act and not penalizing employers that hire "undocumented" workers for the clean up of Katrina and Rita, they enlarge an underclass of labor that is easily exploited. They are not covered by federal, state or local labor laws, safety and health regulations, worker's compensation insurance, etc. How many will get hurt or sick because employers will not provide proper training or protective equipment? Who would they turn to for help? How benevolent or Christian like is that? It maybe argued that well, at least their better off than they would be in their home country. But is the answer, in this age of international terrorism, to essentially open our country to anyone that can get in, which is what the Bush team has essentially done?

 

SA