Gay parents influence on kids

[Lynda J]

Of the g/l couples that I person know, that have raised children. None have raised kids that are homosexual. Have a customer that has boys 10 months apart in age. One is gay one is not. The one boy that is gay was very feminine from the age of 1. Both boys were raised the same. At age 7 this boy told his mother that "I think I am a girl". At that point he had had no exposure to the gay lifestyle. These are great kids and wonderful parents. So setting the example of a gay relationship isn't going to cut it for me as far as gay parents producing gay kids.

And as far as making a choice. My daughter has a friend in Chicago that at 28 came out to his family. Two weeks later he received a certified letter from the family attorney informing him that he was in no way to attempt to contact any member of his family again. The letter included a court order to stay away from all family members.

You know. I don't care what my child does. There is nothing on this earth that would stop me from loving them. This very talented young man now calls me mom and I am proud he feels that way.

[Rooster7]

Lynda J,

 

The one boy that is gay was very feminine from the age of 1.

 

How exactly does a 1 year old display his/her feminine qualities?

 

Perhaps this was something that the parents created in their own mindsa self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

So setting the example of a gay relationship isn't going to cut it for me as far as gay parents producing gay kids.

 

In terms of the BSA argument, the concern is not that boys will become gay although I do have reservations about what may happen in specific scenarios. The general concern is that they will be forced to witness the immoral behavior of homosexualsincluding what Trevorum might describe as tenderness expressed between two men. This kind of intimacy between two men (or two women) is wrong. A straightforward examination of general biology testifies to this fact.

 

The letter included a court order to stay away from all family members. You know. I don't care what my child does

 

A truly bizarre story, but hardly typical, Im sure. In fact, I doubt its veracity. Even soDo you sincerely believe that this family is representative of most families that must deal with this issue? Whats the point of telling this story? No doubt, many especially those on the right of the political spectrum, would be upset by such news. However, to flat out reject and abolish the relationship I dont think so. Speaking for those that I know best - most would maintain the relationship certainly they would continue to love their child. But just as certain, they would try to convince their child that homosexuality is not from God.

 

Its popular today to portray oneself as tolerant - loving and accepting of everyone. While I agree that we should be loving and accepting of one another, I do not agree with how liberals have expanded and distorted that definition. Sometimes, to truly love someone, you must reject some of their behaviors. In fact, it often takes much more courage to confront those that you love, than it takes to be the open minded and tolerant individuals that society says we need to be.

 

[Trevorum]

Lynda,

 

More to the point, Ed and others would have us believe that this innocent child chose to "sin against God" at 7 years old. That's ludicrous. How can anyone honestly believe that people choose their sexual orientation?

 

People are born gay like they're born left-handed. They don't choose it like a clothing style or a religion.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster you said

 

This kind of intimacy between two men (or two women) is wrong. A straightforward examination of general biology testifies to this fact.

 

But sometimes biology does things that dont make sense as in anecephaly. Why does nature allow births that cant live?

 

Not that being gay is a defect, but a trait that does not always manifest itself, like albinoism.

Why are some left handed or right handed? WHy do some have left eye dominance while others are right eye? How do you explain your favorite color preference? Why do some people love loud metal while others tout the peacful wailing of a steel guitar.

[evmori]

Actually Trevorum, a 1 year old can't sin. They don't know right from wrong at that age. And like Rooster, I would question how a 1 year old male showed feminine tendencies. Like what?

 

Sorry Merlyn, this "bad penny" ain't going anywhere.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Trevorum]

Ed,

 

That's my point exactly! This 7 year old child told his mother he thought he was a girl. He wasn't choosing a "gay lifestyle". He wasn't choosing to reject a religious belief. He certainly wasn't trying to sin against God. He was simply stating a fact of how he felt inside.

 

Ed and Rooster and others: I sincerely don't mind that your personal beliefs on this issue are different from mine. If this is what your religion teaches, fine. As I said above, LDS teaches that women are not fit to be Scoutmasters. However, LDS does not insist that ALL troops abide by their religious belief in this matter and BSA has allowed local option in whether or not women can be Scoutmasters.

 

That is all I, and others, ask: that we be given the same right to set membership and leadership standards within our units according to the religious views of our Chartering Organization.

 

-------

 

In any event, the back and forth has been fun here, but I'm out the door to Jambo! I hope to meet some of you ladies and gents and say hello. In the meantime, I'll be offline until early August.

 

[Hunt]

"For sake of discussion, what would it mean to the various religious belief systems that view homosexuality as a "sin" (or, at least, their behavior), if it turned out that homosexuality was a genetic trait, just like being "male" or "female"? Could it be viewed, then, as a "natural state", or would it still be something that needed to be "fixed"?"

 

For many religious people, it would make no difference that the preference is hard-wired--if the behavior is sinful, it is still the moral duty of the individual to refrain--just as an alcoholic sins when he drinks. For another analogy, even if you proved that human males were "hard-wired" to seek multiple sex partners, that wouldn't make adultery OK. It would simply mean that, for reasons unclear, God has allowed some people to bear the burden of inborn impulses that they must resist.

 

But this shows to what extent the issue of the morality of gay preference and gay behavior is essentially a religious question, and why it should be left up to COs to decide. I suppose that one might feel so strongly about it that you couldn't tolerate being involved with an organization that even recognized a difference of opinion on this (this seems to be what Ed is saying), but I think this would be a minority of Scouts and Scouters, especially since many COs would maintain current membership restrictions.

[acco40]

When my oldest son was four years old I was sitting on the couch with him watching the NBC news. It was about the time of the Muslim/Serb/Croat slaughtering in Bosnia/Serbia, etc. so I was watching with remote control in hand to shield my son from any explicit violence. With no cable, my channel selections were around 6 or 7 channels. I briefly came across Entertainment Tonight or some other tripe and they were showing some nubile young starlet in a bikini. I was on the channel for about five seconds and then went on to the next station. Suddenly my four year old asked me to go back to ET. Then he said, "I don't know why I like this but I do." I was somewhat surprised, amused and dare I say it relieved?

 

Trevorum, I'm no expert on LDS but I don't think that the LDS feels that females are necessarily unfit to be Scout leaders. They do not allow them to be Scoutmasters for their units but for a different reason. For their church, Scouting is used as a young mens ministry. It is THE official youth group for boys. As such, they do not allow women leaders.(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Rooster7]

More to the point, Ed and others would have us believe that this innocent child chose to "sin against God" at 7 years old.

 

It is very possible for a seven year old to sin. When I was five years old, I played doctor with the girl next door And guess what, I was fully aware that it was sinful And, I didnt need my parents to tell me so.

 

Regardless, if a seven year old boy told me, I think Im a girl I would gently tell him that he is confused. I would not label this confusion as sin. However, any adult that would feed into such confusion and steer that boy towards the path of homosexuality would be guilty of sin.

[evmori]

Excellent points, Rooster. I agree.

 

I would still like to know how a 1 year old shows feminine tendencies, though.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Rooster7]

Hunt,

 

You explained that very well.

 

Feeding off Hunts explanation - what if it could be proven that pedophiles were born with their tendencies? So what? Its still wrong. They know it. We know it. Tendencies do not make a person act. Tendencies are just that an impulse to behave in a certain manner and/or an attraction to something or someone.

 

If I acted on every tendency I ever had, I would have been put in jail or killed many years ago. Some folks save themselves from acting on tendencies out of self preservation (i.e. if I do that, then I will have to pay this earthly consequence). Others, justify their tendencies so that they can act on them without guilt Not because they are courageous (as many liberals like to think), but because the satisfaction that they derive from those actions out weigh the risks (the potential consequences).

 

OGE,

 

I cant explain every biological aberration any more easily than I can explain - Why do bad things happen to good people? However, I know that God has a plan. I believe in Him with the same degree of faith and confidence that I know that good and evil existsor that our existence as human beings is more than a freak act of nature. I know that our hearts and souls are as real as our bodies. I know that God is talking to me. In fact, I know that hes been talking to all of us. It doesnt take a rocket scientist only someone willing to mediate on these things without an agendasomeone willing to sit in the quiet of their room and silently ask questions without preconceived notions as to what the proper answers ought to besome willing to ignore the intellectuals of the day and to just seek God. Ive done all of these thingsbut only when I sought God and Him alone, did any of it make sense. Im sure you know what I mean.(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Eagledad]

>> People are born gay like they're born left-handed. They don't choose it like a clothing style or a religion.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Not to pick nits, but a boy coming up to a person and saying "I think I'm a girl" isn't someone on their way to homosexuality; they really are confused. Boys are boys and girls are girls. That's a matter of "parts", not sexual persuasion. Yes, there are those who do think that way and sometimes go through a process of medically changing their sex, but I think that that's another issue than what we're talking about.

 

Whether gays are "abnormal", "immoral", "poor role models", or whatever, is, I think, a matter of religious belief more than anything else. Like many, I've done my own search for a higher being, and while I don't know what kind of being he/she/it might be, I've come to the conclusion that he/she/it is out there, somewhere. I don't know that God is some fella with a long white beard and big Dremel tool for carving out commandments, but I don't have a problem reconciling science with the need for a higher power of some sort to "make up the rules", as it were. But, unfortunately, I've also come to the conclusion that this higher being wouldn't be all that impressed with the various groups that are doing things "in his name". There's a satirical newspaper called The Onion that did an "interview with God" a year or so ago, and one of things this "God" said was "I gave them a commandment, "Thou shalt not Kill". I didn't think it was that complicated, and yet my children can't seem to figure it out". I wonder if the Onion was really that far off. God didn't say anywhere that "gays are bad role models". We humans made that up. Sure, we justify it by quoting chapter and verse from a book that may or may not be translated and interpreted correctly. Well, there a lots of different religious groups represented in BSA, they all believe that they're way is the only way to get to "salvation", and guess what? They can't all be right. Maybe, just maybe, the views on gays isn't correct, either. With that in mind, we need some way to provide some flexibility for these different belief systems, and that's why I agree with others that some sort of "local option" may be the best answer.

[Rooster7]

I wonder if the Onion was really that far off. God didn't say anywhere that "gays are bad role models". We humans made that up. Sure, we justify it by quoting chapter and verse from a book that may or may not be translated and interpreted correctly.

 

If the Bible cannot be trusted, then the entire foundation for the Christian faith is questionable. My faith tells that the Bible is from God, and thus it can be trusted 100%. My common sense tells that most contemporary translations were concocted so that people could re-interpret and proceed to live life as they like.

 

Well, there a lots of different religious groups represented in BSA, they all believe that they're way is the only way to get to "salvation", and guess what? They can't all be right.

 

Thrust and parry, eh? Yes, you are correct. However, the value system which the BSA leadership chooses to embrace is still their prerogative. They are not compelled to collectively represent the values of all the various religions encompassed by its membership. If it did, they would have no values to stake claim to, because they would cancel out each other. Thankfully, we have a political system and a government which recognizes the rights of private organizations.

 

This is how Satan wins battles. First, he deceives folks into believing that hes a myth. Then he whittles away at our morals until we are left with nothing. Today, its homosexuality. Tomorrow, itll be the age of consent. In a few more years, it will be who is entitled to give consent. Dont think this is out of the realm of possibilities. Its all a matter of time and who we embrace as our God.

 

[Hunt]

Look at the following list and answer the following questions: (a) Which of these behaviors are condemned as sinful by at least some Christian denominations? (b) Which of them are specifically identified as sinful in the Bible?

 

1. Drinking alcohol

2. Smoking

3. Getting divorced

4. Lending money at interest

5. Dancing

6. Watching television or movies

7. Using buttons on clothing

8. Playing cards

9. Reading Harry Potter books

10. Having more than one wife

11. Having sex before marriage

12. Using birth control, even during marriage

13. Working on Sunday

14. Working on Saturday

15. Buying insurance

16. Swearing oaths

17. Homosexual behavior

18. Racism

19. Damaging the environment

20. Making carved images of Jesus or Mary

21. Calling another person a fool

22. Gambling

 

Now, which of these behaviors should preclude a person from being a Scout leader, and why?

 

ALL of those behaviors are condemned as sinful by various Christian groups. Some, but not all, are explicitly condemned in the Bible, and perhaps you can extrapolate others. In certain cases, some Christian groups actively practice and promote the very acts decried as sinful by other groups (i.e., are the icons and statues in a Catholic church "graven images?"--it depends who you ask).

 

Now, I didn't put "committing murder" or "stealing" or "abusing children" on the list, because there is broad agreement across Christian religions--and society as a whole--that these actions are wrong. At the other end of the spectrum, there's not much of a consensus that it's sinful to use buttons on one's clothing (unless you're Amish). I think the problem here is that some people think that homosexuality belongs with murder and stealing--that there's a broad consensus that it's sinful--while others think that it belongs more with something like divorce--some religions condemn it, others don't. If you're in the first group, it seems obvious to you that BSA should retain its current position, and if you're in the second group, you think that BSA should be neutral and let the COs decide.