GernBlansten Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Help me out here. What gay ethics are troubling to you? Specifically, ethics that would normally be displayed or demonstrated in a Scout setting. Ethics specific to homosexuals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Gern, maybe they object to singing Broadway showtunes around the campfire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 What are gay ethics? I like Broadway show tunes! Especially "Fiddler on the Roof"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Scouter Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 I think, from a very pragmatic view, Kahuna has it right on the head. At the National level, BSA is a business, and I think Kahuna is absolutely right that they are simply comparing numbers. If they have an anti-gay policy, they lose "x" number of current or potential members; if they have a pro- or neutral gay policy, they lose "y" number of current or potential members. I think we are probably already past the tipping point on this, really. I'd bet that if you did a survey asking the right questions, you'd find that most Scouters don't really care if a leader or Scout is gay or not, given the usual caveats that would apply to anyone in Scouting as far as behavior goes. But, as Kahuna implied, you probably won't see any changes until people start threatening to leave. The other interesting point brought up in regards to gays is the idea that BSA doesn't really justify their view on gays as poor role models, they just say that they are. It's hard to argue that, to attempt change when there's no reasoning being provided to argue against. "It just is". Now, some members will tell you that it's because of what the Bible says about gays, which in itself isn't universally accepted by biblical scholars. Of course, you could take the more simplistic approach of "well, according to some, the Bible says that slavery is ok, too". Then, there are those who say that "gayness" violates some tenets of the Scout Oath/Law. That's a problematic argument, at best. Gays are "not Clean"? According to who? The genetic discussion is certainly interesting, but basically, I think it shouldn't matter why someone is gay, or whether their parents are gay. BSA shouldn't base its membership policies in such a way as to segregate whole populations but rather should look at the individuals. The way BSA judges its membership criteria, there is absolutely nothing that would stop them from categorizing any other group as being unfitting members, be they gay or black or Jewish or Catholic priests or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rooster7 Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Trevorum, Rooster, you are confused. That is NOT heterosexual behavior. That is merely normal tenderness between two people who love each other. It is not the exclusive domain of straight folks. The tenderness exchanged between a husband and wife is not the same that is shown between mother and child. Spouses often unwittingly and subtly communicate sexuality and a degree of familiarity. It may not be the exclusive domain of straight folks (per the popular culture), but for my children, I dont want that kind of familiarity being modeled by two menapparently, neither does the BSA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Your original point seemed to be that BSA does indeed teach heterosexuality, albeit informally. ("My point is heterosexuality is taught to our children. Its not a formal education, but it is clearly and openly communicated to our children") I replied that this is not heterosexual behavior we are teaching, but just normal affection between (and here I should have clarified) spouses. Rooster, I accept the fact that you disapprove of gays for religious reasons. That is what your faith teaches. You don't want your sons to know any gay folks. And that is why I think that local option is the solution. My faith teaches the exact opposite. When LDS COs made clear that they disapproved of female leaders for religious reasons, BSA made leadership restrictions a local option. LDS folks have no problem with women in charge of other troops, they just don't want them in their own troop. So your CO could exclude gays on religious grounds and mine could accept them for the same reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynda J Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Boy I'm getting ready to stick my foot in it. God created all things in the heavens and on the earth. Right? So that means that he also created homosexuals. I seem to also remember a saying. "Judge not lest ye be judged" I accept people on a one on one basis. If they are honest, giving, fair, and good I accept them. It does not matter to me the color of their skin, language they speak, their belief is what ever higher being or their sexual partner. This is what I was taught by my parents. And as far as I am concerned they were two of the greatest people on this earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 But, as for me & my house, we will serve the Lord. In other words, for me, it is all about role modeling & ethics. Yes, Ed, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.I suppose you would be one of those who would leave if the BSA admitted overt gays. There are many more who see their religious duty as you do. In my religion, however, there is no concept of sin per se and no condemnation in dharma of homosexuality (so far as I am aware). I make no criticism of your religion, it is merely different than mine. When the BSA makes its (IMHO inevitable) decision, we will each have to decide what course to follow. It's likely that you would leave and that I would stay. When they decide the balance is more "stay" than "go" they will change policies. It's unfortunate that the BSA is forced to make business decisions like this, but they are confronted with these issues all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 19, 2005 Share Posted July 19, 2005 Kahuna, Yep. I'd be one of the 1st ones out the door. If you don't mind my asking, what religion are you? Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjhammer Posted July 19, 2005 Author Share Posted July 19, 2005 Really Ed? Come on, now... do you really value Scouting so little that you'd bail if some troop across town or in another council decided a 16-year-old gay Scout should stay, or the gay parent of a boy should be assistant Scoutmaster? You've demonstrated in this forum many times just how simple you are, but I can't believe it's that cut and dry for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kahuna Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 If you don't mind my asking, what religion are you? Buddhist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Trevorum, as we used to say back in the 70s, right on, man. LyndaJ, you did not put your foot in it, not as far as I am concerned, anyway. I have made the same point a number of times. Gay people are part of God's creation, and they should be evaluated for membership in a BSA unit the same as if they were straight. Meaning, if they have a history of hurting other people or disobeying the law, or will not subscribe to the principles of Scouting, or for some other reason are of bad character, they don't become a Scout leader; and even those who are of good character must be selected by a CO, who may exclude them for any reason (well, they can't "openly" exclude someone on the basis of race, but other than that...) Straight and gay people can pass that test, and straight and gay people can fail that test, and if 60 or 70 or 80 percent of CO's would exclude someone on the basis that they are gay, well, it's not 100 percent, and I think it would start to move the BSA past this issue. Now, Lynda, I have on occasion taken the idea that "God made gay people too" one step further. I have suggested, only half-jokingly, that perhaps God made a small percentage of humanity gay as a test for the rest of us, to see how we would treat a person who was "so different" but not hurting anybody. In the interest of full disclosure, I have to admit that I don't believe that God judges us on an individual basis anyway, so the "test" theory doesn't even fly with me. And of course I can't "prove" it. But those who think they are "serving God" by promoting the exclusion of gay people, calling them perverts or whatever, may want to think about what God might really have in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evmori Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 tj, I'd be gone like a bad penny. It is that simple to me. I refuse to purchase or rent any Disney products because of their gay policy. God made every living thing on this earth. All humans have free will. We can choose to sin or not. So if you want to say God created gay people I would say you are wrong. God created people who chose to be gay. Ed Mori Troop 1 1 Peter 4:10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjhammer Posted July 20, 2005 Author Share Posted July 20, 2005 >>I'd be gone like a bad penny. Well, yes, I suppose in that case you're right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlyn_LeRoy Posted July 20, 2005 Share Posted July 20, 2005 Bad pennies don't go, the saying is "A bad penny always turns up." They keep returning to haunt you. Now make like a tree and get outta here, McFly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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