Gay parents influence on kids

[NJCubScouter]

I think it was the poster of Raquel Welch from "1 million years B.C." that did it for me. (By the way, I read somewhere that she will turn 65 this year... difficult to believe.)

 

Seriously though, I don't think I ever made a choice as to my orientation. It just was what it was. It is biological -- but that doesn't mean the biology works the same for everybody. For a small percentage it works differently, apparently. I think our biology (whether you want to attribute it to God, Mother Nature, Charles Darwin, or whatever) makes sure that we have enough people ready, willing and able to reproduce to keep the species thriving. But apparently that does not require 100 percent of people to be attracted to the opposite gender, only 95 percent or so.

[evmori]

Raquel 65! WOW!

 

I don't believe gays are "hard wired". If they were, explain Anne Heche! She's gay. Now she's not. Now she is! Plus what about those gay people that "turn from the lifestyle" and become straight and visa versa?

 

Let's not forget Ursala Andress in Dr. No!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[GernBlansten]

I would label Anne Heche as a confused bi-sexual. Ever read her writings?

 

So Ed,

With your statement -- "Plus what about those gay people that "turn from the lifestyle" and become straight and visa versa?"

 

Could I get you to change to the "lifestyle"? What kind of program, training, torture, cohersion, payment, or threat would divert you from your straight ways? I doubt any. You are hard-wired straight. I could put a dress on you, but you will still be straight. Doesn't the same go for gays?

 

BTW, Angie Dickenson in Rio Bravo gets my vote on swinging me to hetrosexuality. Good thing that came out before Dr. No. Sean Connery could have swung me the other way!

[Trevorum]

People don't choose sexual orientation any more than they choose hair color. They can hide it, disguise it, deny it, but it's there and they were born with it. The chief difference is that people get hair quite quickly, but sexual orientation is largely hidden until puberty.

 

Biological research is increasingly demonstrating the genetic and hormonal underpinnings of gender preference. Evolutionary anthropology has shown how non-reproducing males would be evolutionarily adaptive in foraging human bands, thus selecting for balanced frequencies of a particular "gene". Finally, mathematical models have shown that any species that "allowed" sexual orientation to be chosen by the individual organism would go extinct quite rapidly.

 

 

[johndaigler]

Liz Taylor - Ivanhoe

 

Ed, You're wrong. If it's a Faith based belief, then you should make this clear. Based on a preponderance of scientific research and data, your understanding of heredity and biological trait transferance is ~20 years outdated. Observe your kids - heredity isn't just about what they look like.

 

Nobody understands Anne Heche!

 

Just a question, but if gay parents had the ability to influence their children's sexual wiring and wanted to impact their kid's "choices" would they wish their kids to be gay in America in 2005? I think, we are all terribly underinformed . . .

 

jd

 

[evmori]

You don't wanna see me in a dress. Actually ......

 

Prove me wrong! Prove gays are hard-wired. Prove it isn't a choice.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Kahuna]

It cannot be proved, as in a court of law or scientific proof, that homosexuality or heterosexuality are hardwired OR that they are not. IMHO, it makes sense to believe that homosexuals are born that way, for the simple reason that, particularly in years past, it was a very difficult lifestyle. Why would anyone choose that in 1950? It is also obvious to anyone who has been in scouting for a long time, that some boys are gay when they're 13 years old. They aren't rebellious, they aren't psychotic, they're just gay. Every gay person I have talked to about this says they always knew they were gay.

 

According to the evidence I've read, the number one cause of suicide among high school students has to do with the fact that they are gay. If it were a choice, I think most high schoolers would rather be chasing after the prom queen. It's a lot more popular.

 

Can a gay person choose a lifestyle other than the gay one? Obviously they can. They can either be celebate or they can "fake" the hetero lifestyle. I've known a couple of those as well.

 

I agree that the question is extremely important from a BSA point of view. If, indeed, homosexuality is hardwired, then we are a) discriminating against boys who are akin to minority or handicapped boys and b) running no risk by allowing gays to be leaders because they will have no effect on the lives of the boys. It's my prediction that the BSA will continue to view the issue as profit/loss: so long as membership, money and sponsors depend more on excluding gays than including, they be excluded. When the balance shifts, and you can see some movement in that direction, the BSA will change it's policy on both.

[Trevorum]

Kahuna, alas, I fear you are right. Rather than doing the right thing, the moral thing, BSA has chosen to do the economic thing, the corporate thing.

 

I remember my father telling me that when he was growing up back in the 1920s and 30s everyone "knew" that certain ethnic groups were inferior because, well, because everyone just knew that! Today, there are still racists amnongst us but, by and large, society has progressed beyond that point.

 

I remember my grandmother telling me about the times when women were not allowed to vote in our country, much less hold important jobs like lawyers and bank presidents. There is still a glass ceiling in many professions, but by and large, society has progressed beyond that point.

 

My sons will one day tell my gransons about the time when sexual orientation was a big issue in Scouting. Of course by then, people will have some other minority to fear and loathe - maybe it will be clones, or the genetically engineered ...

 

[Kahuna]

Yes, I think so, and I'm glad I don't have to make that decision. It's a tough call. The fact that things are changing is indicated by a recent recruiting experience. We did a high school drive for Sea Scouts and one of the first questions asked was, "What about gay kids? We have an all inclusive policy on this campus." This is a campus, btw, where about 80% of the kids come from military families. The DE (a Mormon) was with me and we responded that sexual behavior of any kind is verboten among our members, but that we do not ask kids about their sexual orientation. They were happy with that, but all it would take would be one incident of a kid "outing" himself/herself, as Matt Hill did, thereby forcing council to expell him/her to pretty much get us kicked out of the high schools. Fortunately, IMHO, people in Hawai'i are very laid back about sexual orientation, but you can see less and less tolerance for exclusion.

 

That may be right, that may be wrong, but I think it's the direction we are headed.

[GernBlansten]

In my council, over 50% of the units are LDS units. I think they (the Mormons) have a very large voice on setting policy in my area. They (the Mormons) have stated that if the rules excluding homosexuals were laxed, they would pull their boys.

Who do you think our council listens too?

[Bob White]

Regardless of how large the density of mormons are in your council they have no say as to the membership rules of the national organization, no single council or single organization has that kind of power. The national executive committee ia a wide mix of representatives form throughout the demographics of scouting in the BSA.

 

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Thats good to know Bob, but I think they (the Mormons) have a pretty strong voice at national too. They (the Mormons) have a profound influence on our district activities like Camporee. Our Camporees are basically one day events. They start Friday night late and end Saturday at sunset because of deference to the large Mormon population of scouts that cannot participate on Sunday. Don't know how Camporees work in other regions but it seems silly for our district to "offically" end the camporee because some of the troops must leave early.

 

 

[Bob White]

You said over 50%. If I was the event organizer and I knew that over 50% of the participants were going to leave by sundown Saturday then you can bet that so would the majority of the planned program. it makes good sense.

 

 

[GernBlansten]

Prove me wrong! Prove gays are hard-wired. Prove it isn't a choice.

 

Ed, when you want to discriminate, you should be the one proving it's a choice not hard-wired.

 

Actually Ed, I was just like you at one point in my life. I thought gays were repulsive, immoral sodomites. They chose to be that way, just like a drug addict or criminal.

 

Then I went to college and met my roommate Todd. He was kind, athletic, smart and as normal as one could hope. We became good friends had good times for years to come. A few years later, we were talking at a party and he told me he was gay. He was worried I might reject him, but our friendship prevailed. I started asking him why he was gay. He said he didn't choose to be, he just was. For the next few years, he and I had long frank discussions on homosexuality, discrimination, friendship, love, marriage, children, women and men. I met many of his friends, some I liked, some I didn't. We drifted apart and 10 years later, I found out from his mother that he died of AIDS.

 

Anyways, I find people like you Ed, have never had a close, open relationship with a gay person. I think you would find them to be good, moral people, just different.

[evmori]

Ed, when you want to discriminate, you should be the one proving it's a choice not hard-wired.

 

Actually, Gern, if gays were hard-wired the gay community would have a valid point about discrimination. Since they aren't you don't. And since you can't prove it using it as a defense against gays not meeting the BSA membership requirements is just skewing the issue.

 

Actually Ed, I was just like you at one point in my life. I thought gays were repulsive, immoral sodomites. They chose to be that way, just like a drug addict or criminal.

 

Actually, Gern, you know nothing about me. I have never thought gays were repulsive, immoral sodomites or anything else you posted. I have known many gay people and have found most to be very nice. I have also found some to be not very nice. Sorta like straight people.

 

Then I went to college and met my roommate Todd. He was kind, athletic, smart and as normal as one could hope. We became good friends had good times for years to come. A few years later, we were talking at a party and he told me he was gay. He was worried I might reject him, but our friendship prevailed. I started asking him why he was gay. He said he didn't choose to be, he just was. For the next few years, he and I had long frank discussions on homosexuality, discrimination, friendship, love, marriage, children, women and men. I met many of his friends, some I liked, some I didn't. We drifted apart and 10 years later, I found out from his mother that he died of AIDS.

 

Sad story.

 

Anyways, I find people like you Ed, have never had a close, open relationship with a gay person. I think you would find them to be good, moral people, just different.

 

Once again, Gern, you no nothing about me. You are making your assumptions based on your own beliefs.

 

As a Christian, I do not hate anyone. I don't like everyone equally but I hate no one. I try to treat all people the way I would want them to treat me. This doesn't mean I condone their lifestyle. I don't always.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10