What about gay parents?

[Bob White]

There seems to be a misunderstanding among some volunteers as to who owns the BSA and who actually makes decisions in the BSA. If you think the BSA decision makers are suits you are for the most part mistaken, especially in program related matters.

 

A rather simplified model is McDonalds Rstaurants.

 

There is a corporate entit that franchises the specific image, product and process to local franchisees. The franchisee inturn hires managers, who hire employees, who serve the customer.

 

BSA is the corporation, Chartered organizations are the Franchisees, The CR, and CC the management team, the volunteers are the employees, and the youth are the customers.

 

Mr. Nelson wants the employees to make the corporate decisions at McDonalds. And while that is what happens on a limited basis in the BSA it is never going to happen that way completely.

 

The Corporate directors made of Charter Representatives, hire the corporate professionals to run the day to day aspects of things and to manage the future health of the movement. The COs and local franchise holders (councils) recommend key volunteers to help design and plan the program. Each volunteer committee is assigned a professional whose responsibitiy is to put the decision of the volunteer committee into action.

 

There are several hundred volunteers nationwide involved daily in the development of every aspect of the Scouting movement in the BSA. Just because you do not know one personally could be due to a number of reasons. Among the most likely are 1)there are tens of thousands of volunteers in the BSA it could be that you simply have not met one yet. 2) You perhaps currently run in a different crowd than the people who are selected for such projects.

 

The membership rules are determined by the relationships committee and the national executive board. These committees are made up almost entirely of volunteers that represent the chartered otrganizations that use scouting.

 

 

[evmori]

Ed, anyone who wants to change the DRP obviously doesn't agree with it as written, so by the rigid, everyone-must-subscribe-to-the-DRP standard, anyone who wants to change it doesn't quite agree with it, so they've kicked themselves out, and their opinions on what it should be are ignored.

 

Not true. What if someone wants to move paragraph 2 in front of paragraph 1? That's not disagreeing with the DRP.

 

Why do you interpret BSA policy rigidly & not the Constitution? You interpret the Constitution to fit your own needs! Don't think that was the original intention of the document.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob writes:

The membership rules are determined by the relationships committee and the national executive board. These committees are made up almost entirely of volunteers that represent the chartered otrganizations that use scouting.

 

So Bob, when public schools were the #1 charter partner of BSA units, did their representatives urge the BSA to exclude atheists, thus making it impossible for public schools to continue to be charter partners?

[Bob White]

Public schools rarely were the sponsors of scout units they only acted as the meeting place, the PTA's, PTO's and other parent groups were the sponsors.

 

And yes they must have voted to exclude athiests for I know that even in the days that they were the near majority of sponors that athiests were restricted from membership. (I know because my parents were both scout leaders in those days and so I asked)

 

How hard is it to figure out when the Oath you take is to "do your best to do your duty to God", that an athiest would be unable to fulfill that obligation?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Rooster7]

tjhammer,

 

And its all those other kids - like the ones in Matt's troop who taunted and teased him under the knowing eye of their leaders - who get a not-so-subtle message from BSA that it's OK to think of gay kids as "less than the best kind of citizen" simply because they are gay. It may be Rooster's right to teach his children to believe that way, but the same right should be afforded other parents in other neighborhoods who disagree and want no part of institutionalized prejudice.

 

What exactly do you think I teach my kids? As you pressed Bob White, please provide some data to back up your contention. I dont know what kind of citizen the typical gay kid may be. Its not something I think about. What I do believe and teach my children is this homosexuality is a sin. Anything purported beyond this, is TJs speculation or projection as to who he thinks I am.

 

Bob White,

 

I see no reason for you to take offense. You asked a question and I answered it. In any case, both my posts were clear. I implied nothing, and I cannot control what you might infer. As far as the content of John 8:1 I am confident you have the appropriate resources at hand to discover the answer to your question.

 

Then later

 

Oops sorry, John 8:7

 

Apparently, I didnt have the appropriate resources to read your mind and discover the proper bible reference.

 

When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." John 8:7

 

Given my previous posts, I dont feel this caution is appropriate. Ive never claimed to be without sin. Nor do I claim to have the ability to judge anyones standing with God. I am simply repeating what the Bible teaches which is homosexuality is not pleasing to Godit is a sin. I doubt if Jesus was upset with the crowd because they recognized the sinfulness of the prostitute. It was their unforgiving and ruthless desire to inflict judgment on her which caused him to rebuke them. I have no such desire for Matt, TJ, or any other homosexual or any other sinner for that matter. I know my sins, and I dont count them as less than others. However, in the context of this debate and the BSA policy, I do take issue with homosexuals who want to proclaim their sexual behavior as being normal (i.e., as not being a sin - or in the terms stemming from this debate, behavior which should not preclude them as being a proper role model).

 

[Bob White]

Rooster, I never said you did. I said that the BSA was not setting itself up as a judge of sins or sinners and that scouters should not suggest that it is.

 

But while you being so insistant that you do not judge others and on howthat the passage in John I mentioned has no bearing on you... please be careful about judging my typos unless you believe you have never typed anything in error yourself.

 

I am interested in the part where you say you have taught scouts that homosexuality is a sin. I've been doing this program for a fair bit of time and I can't think of a single moment when this topic of education was ever appropriate or needed in a scouting environment. I have had two scouts who were raised in homes with homosexual partners and I still never had occassion for the discussion you suggest. In fact I don't think the topic of sin ever really came up. We always discussed positive behaviour not negative.

 

So when are you having these topics on homosexuality arising?

 

[Rooster7]

Bob White,

 

...please be careful about judging my typos unless you believe you have never typed anything in error yourself.

 

I asked for clarification, but your response was to summarily dismiss my inquiry. To refresh your memory, you said - "As far as the content of John 8:1 I am confident you have the appropriate resources at hand to discover the answer to your question." To be sure, its not your typos that bother me.

 

I am interested in the part where you say you have taught scouts that homosexuality is a sin.

 

Look again. I never said I taught scouts that homosexuality is a sin. I said I taught my children that homosexuality is a sin. While I have enjoyed the company of many of scouts, I never considered them to be my children.

 

You know...we actually agree on the BSA policy. Why dont we just leave it at that.

[evmori]

If one of my Scouts (or any Scout for that fact) asked me if homosexuality was a sin I would tell them yes. If they asked me if stealing was a sin I would tell them yes. My point is we are to be good examples to the Scouts in our charge. If we don't answer their questions truthfully, what are we teaching them?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob White writes:

Public schools rarely were the sponsors of scout units they only acted as the meeting place, the PTA's, PTO's and other parent groups were the sponsors.

 

What's your source on that, Bob? The figures I've seen for chartering organizations have PTAs and PTOs separate, and they are smaller than the total for public schools.

 

For example, here's 1998:

 

Educational Organizations:.........Units..........Youth

 

Correctional Institutions............270..........6,540

Handicapped Resources................763.........11,199

Parent-Teacher Groups..............4,002........186,821

Parent Teacher Associations........1,965.........98,870

Private Schools....................1,213.........33,107

Public Schools....................10,113........362,989

 

 

So what figures do you have?

[evmori]

Here comes Merlyn with the numbers! 8 year old numbers! About as relevant as his list he maintains.

 

Merlyn,

How many people have been helped by Scouts? How many Scouts have helped others? How many communities have benefited from Scouts?

 

I would say countless more than your 8 year old numbers represent. And I'll bet no one asked or cared if anyone was an atheist or homosexual or bisexual. The important thing is people and communities have benefited from Scouting for many years and will continue to benefit from Scouting for many years regardless of how hard you and your ilk (yeah ilk) try to stop them.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

Here comes Merlyn with the numbers! 8 year old numbers!

 

Hey Ed, I was TALKING about back when public schools WERE the #1 charter partner, so OF COURSE i'm using old numbers. Duh...

 

Since then, public schools have been dropping sponsorship due to the BSA's discrimination, and they are supposed to go down to zero if the BSA lives up to the word of its Director of Registration.

[Bob White]

What you said was

"So Bob, when public schools were the #1 charter partner of BSA units"

 

So tell us when was the last year that public schools were the #1 chartering organization.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob writes:

So tell us when was the last year that public schools were the #1 chartering organization.

 

The 1998 Feb/Mar BSA Today says that public schools were the #1 sponsor before Exploring was moved into Learning for Life, with 427,842 members and 11,853 units. PTA's were listed as the #10 sponsor. After the L4L move, public schools were still #3 in total Scouting members in 1998. So I would say 1997 and earlier they were #1 for many of the years, and certainly in the top 5 for many more (and #1 for Packs).

 

So Bob, now you tell me when public schools "rarely" chartered units, and when public school representatives "must have" voted to have public schools break the law and exclude atheists.

[Bob White]

While There may have been some units chartered directly by Schools that does not alter the the fact that schools are not and have not been the #1 Co in the BSA for quite some time. According the the History of scouting in the LDS church there were over 24,500 LDS units at the time you report that public schools and just over 10, 000.

 

Even the number of units sponsored by the United Methodist Men's Club exceeded that number, and I am fairly sure that the Units sponsored by the catholic church did as well.

 

However I am glad to see you regard the BSA Today as a believable source. Here is there reporting of the parets poll that I refered to.

 

http://www.bsa-dpvc.org/forms/bsatoday-0104.pdf

 

 

BW

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Bob writes:

While There may have been some units chartered directly by Schools

 

SOME units!?

 

SOME units!?

 

10,000 units is "some units"...

 

that does not alter the the fact that schools are not and have not been the #1 Co in the BSA for quite some time.

 

So what? I never said public schools were #1 NOW. I was disputing your still-unsupported claim that public schools "rarely" chartered units.

 

When in the last 20 years have public schools been outside the top 10 charter partners, Bob?

 

Here's your original comment again:

Public schools rarely were the sponsors of scout units they only acted as the meeting place, the PTA's, PTO's and other parent groups were the sponsors.

 

For what year(s) in the last 20 years is the above comment valid?

 

As far as I can see, there are NO years from 1985-2005 that the above comment is correct.

 

So Bob, please give me a year where your comment about public schools is correct.

 

According the the History of scouting in the LDS church there were over 24,500 LDS units at the time you report that public schools and just over 10, 000.

 

Yes Bob, and what was the total number of MEMBERS? Who sponsored more MEMBERS?

 

You know the old joke of the guy who orders a pizza, and is asked if he wants it cut into 6 or 8 pieces - "oh, better make it six, I don't think I could eat eight".

 

Public schools had more members in 1997, right?