What about gay parents?

[matthillnc]

First of all, being gay is not a decision. No matter what any person says or believes, being gay is not a choice I made. If you were asked to "change" your orientation from straight to gay, could you do it? Could you turn off all attraction for the opposite sex and make yourself be attracted, emotionally, spiritually and physically, to a person of the same sex?

 

Secondly, I make the correlation between a gay parent being told to not participate in Scouting activities and then a child not being able to participate because for some events, especially for young Scouters such as Tiger Scouts and Cub Scouts, parental involvement and presence is REQUIRED for some events such as camping trips or father/son camporees. My father was never really involved in my Scouting experience and I was LUCKY to have my friend's father act in his stead. If he had not taken the responsibility of being my legal guardian on those trips in Cub Scouts, I would not have been able to go. In fact, there were numerous Cub Scout trips which my little brother could not participate in because my father did not want to go and no one was willing to act as his guardian once my friend, his father and I moved onto the Boy Scout Troop.

 

Also, do you not think that it does not hurt a youth when you tell him he is no longer wanted by his friends, well, practically his family. I was all of sudden told to no longer come around or be around or participate in events that pretty much made up my entire childhood with people I had grown up with. My friends and their parents were more than just fellow Scouters... they were like my family. So much for family sticking together I guess.

 

My dismissal and the BSA policy shows what the BSA really is. I'm not talking about individual Scouters, for I know that there are many people involved in Scouting which take the principals of Scouting seriously. In fact, I still come in contact with just a few of my former Troop mates and their parents (the same ones who did not agree with the policy and wanted me to stay).

 

The BSA policy shows that the Boy Scouts of America, Inc. is nothing but hypocritical. The Scout Law includes such principals as trustworthiness, honesty, loyalty, friendliness and kindness. All of those principals were broken when I was told to leave and also when other Scouts across the nation have been told to leave. How is is trustworthy, friendly or kind to tell a 14 year old boy to go away and tell him, basically, we don't want you, the Scouts don't want you, you aren't worthy enough to be wanted. How is it honest if I would have had to lie to stay in the Scouts? I did what I was supposed to do... I told the truth, I was honest. I should have been able to expect that my fellow Scouts would be trustworthy, friendly and kind enough to love me and accept me no matter what.

 

Scouting is more than just an organization. It is family. When a boy becomes involved in Socuting at a young age and then is told to leave once he reaches a point in his life when he finally becomes consciously aware and mature enough to handle his sexual or religious orientation, it is not right to tell him to leave the people who he has come to love since being a young child.

 

Discrimination by the Boy Scouts of America causes hurt by making abuses to gay youth's self-esteem, self image and psyche. Adolescence is such a hard time for teenagers today.... Add in questions of sexuality and the rejection that gay people face in society on a DAY TO DAY basis.... its no wonder why the suicide rate amongst gay and lesbian youth is so high.

 

The Boy Scouts of America breaks the principals contained with the Scout Law when is discriminates against and hurts youth. Our youth are to precious to be discriminated against and hurt, for they are our nation's most precious gift to the world... they are our future Senators, Congressmen, teachers, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, clergy, parents, military servicemembers, and maybe even President.

 

I will end with this:

If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The Holy Gospel of our Lord according to Saint Matthew 18:6 New Revised Standard Version

 

MATT HILL

http://www.MattHillNC.com

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com

 

[Bob White]

Hi Ronvo,

First let me remind you that as a private organization the BSA has the legal right to determine membership "at will". They, like any private organization can determine based on any criteria they choose whether, published or not, to terminate anyone's membership.

 

This is not a matter of "is that right or wrong", it is simply what is. A private organization has the legal right to choose who they wish to associate with and who they wish to allow to associate with them. A condition recognized and supported by a decision of the US Supreme Court.

 

In this case Matt chose to not only belong to, but to start, a group in support of gay/homosexual activity or lifestyle. A preference not supported by the membership criteria of the BSA. Had Matt's homosexuality not been made public, an action he could reasonably presume would follow after starting his club and allowing the interview, he mighty still be a member today.

 

Mat was not required to start his club, he chose to. Matt is not required or guaranteed, membership in a private organization. If he meets the membership qualification he may be granted membership but it is not his right to belong.

 

 

 

 

[ronvo]

Bob

I am well are of BSA's status as a private organizations and the court's decisions.

 

I just wasn't sure whether you were referring to his decision to "come out" (which by the way I agree with you - that WAS "his decision") or that you thought he decided to be gay(in which case I would have had to disagree with you.)

 

thanks for clarifying,

ronvo

[ronvo]

Bob

I am well are of BSA's status as a private organizations and the court's decisions.

 

I just wasn't sure whether you were referring to his decision to "come out" (which by the way I agree with you - that WAS "his decision") or that you thought he decided to be gay(in which case I would have had to disagree with you.)

 

thanks for clarifying,

ronvo

[Rooster7]

Lynda, Lynda, Lynda

 

Opening that can of worms is not going to help your case. Its sad that the hierarchy in the Catholic Church did not deal with this problem correctly (openly, swiftly, and with harsh consequences). However, statistically, there are no more or less pedophiles in the Catholic priesthood than there is in the general population. This is something that the homosexual community cannot claim. Studies show a much higher than normal incidence of pedophilia within that community.

 

Matt,

 

Add in questions of sexuality and the rejection that gay people face in society on a DAY TO DAY basis.... its no wonder why the suicide rate amongst gay and lesbian youth is so high.

 

Who are you kidding? The culture at least the popular culture, has accepted you with open arms. It seems quite vogue to be accepting of homosexuality in my parts. The fact is - the BSA is one of a handful of organizations that is standing firm, by their values.

 

As for your scripture quote from Matthew If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, I find it to be highly ironic. As a Christian, if I was to tell you that homosexuality is not a sin, then thats exactly what I would be guilty of doing Id be placing a stumbling block before you.

 

[Bob White]

Matt allow me to point out some serious flaws in your last post

 

"First of all, being gay is not a decision."

Whether it is or not is not relevent. Being male is not a choice either but if you want to be a Cub Scout or Boy Scout you still have to be male. The choice you made was to support homosexuality in opposition to the BSA's membership rules.

 

"Secondly, I make the correlation between a gay parent being told to not participate in Scouting activities and then a child not being able to participate because for some events, especially for young Scouters such as Tiger Scouts and Cub Scouts, parental involvement and presence is REQUIRED for some events such as camping trips or father/son camporees. "

 

You are wrong on many levels here. First there is nothing in the BSA regulations that bars a homeosexual parent from attending any event,

Parental involvement is not required for tiger membership, adult partner is. That can be anyone approved by the parent or guardian. I have never heard of a Father/son camporee being done in the BSA.

 

"My father was never really involved in my Scouting experience and I was LUCKY to have my friend's father act in his stead. I am sorry for you but that was by your fathers choice not the BSA's, and outsdide of Tigers it was not necessary for your fathers friend to be involved at all, that was your families choice not the BSA.

 

"Also, do you not think that it does not hurt a youth when you tell him he is no longer wanted by his friends, well, practically his family. I was all of sudden told to no longer come around or be around or participate in events that pretty much made up my entire childhood with people I had grown up with. My friends and their parents were more than just fellow Scouters... they were like my family. So much for family sticking together I guess.

 

When did the BSA say your family and friends did not want you? They never said that. They said that you did not meet the membership criteria of the BSA by your own actions in making you support of homosexuality public...Your Choice!

 

The BSA said nothing to your friends and family, andy loss you occured there was not caused or contributed to by the BSA. Is it not possible tat your scouting friends were simply not as thrilled with your choice as you expected them to be and instead had values that were more like those reflected in the membership criteria of the BSA?

 

"My dismissal and the BSA policy shows what the BSA really is. I'm not talking about individual Scouters, for I know that there are many people involved in Scouting which take the principals of Scouting seriously. In fact, I still come in contact with just a few of my former Troop mates and their parents (the same ones who did not agree with the policy and wanted me to stay). "

 

Not as many as you might think about two years ago the BSA had a poll done and found that an overwhelming majority of the membership polled supported the BSA values including their membership criteria.

 

"The BSA policy shows that the Boy Scouts of America, Inc. is nothing but hypocritical. The Scout Law includes such principals as trustworthiness, honesty, loyalty, friendliness and kindness. All of those principals were broken when I was told to leave and also when other Scouts across the nation have been told to leave."

 

I am sure you would like to believe that but did the BSA call you names? Did they taunt you? Did they make any effort to emabarrass you. Did they cantact any of your friends or ralatives and try to have your persecuated in any way? NO. They simple said that you violated a condition of membership. One that existed when you joined. The BSa did not change...you changed. The BSA made no effort to be unkind about your choice, they were not discourteous, untrustworthy, nor did they violate any part of the scout Oath or Law. You changed and in that change you removed yourself from membership. Had you not chosen to make your preference public you would not have had your membership revoked. You broke the rules. All choices have repercussions, some good some not so good.

 

"How is it honest if I would have had to lie to stay in the Scouts?"

 

Who asked you to lie? In fact who asked you to say anything at all? You chose your preference and You chose to make it public, then you expected nothing would change. That's not how life works.

 

"I did what I was supposed to do... I told the truth, I was honest. I should have been able to expect that my fellow Scouts would be trustworthy, friendly and kind enough to love me and accept me no matter what."

 

Matt to think that simply telling the truth makes what you say acceptable to everyone is a sign of your youth and lack of adult reasoning. Just because you tell the truth doesn't make your decision acceptable. The truth is you chose to violate the membership regulation.

 

"Scouting is more than just an organization. It is family. When a boy becomes involved in Socuting at a young age and then is told to leave once he reaches a point in his life when he finally becomes consciously aware and mature enough to handle his sexual or religious orientation, it is not right to tell him to leave the people who he has come to love since being a young child."

 

Scouting is an organization. Many people grow close quickly because the share the same scouting values. Values that are not fully in tune with your choices. By the way you mention that your sexual and religious orientation 'matured', that raises two questions 1) does that mean that the vast majority of us who have not come to the choices you have made are immature in our decision? 2) is your matured religious beliefs in keeping with the BSA membership regulations? No need for a response just wondering out loud

 

Any 'family' sense you had came from your personal interaction with those you have come in contact with who believed that you shared their same beliefs and values. Your life choices may or may not alter those relationships, but it has nothing to do with the decisions of the BSA.

 

Discrimination by the Boy Scouts of America causes hurt by making abuses to gay youth's self-esteem, self image and psyche. Adolescence is such a hard time for teenagers today.... Add in questions of sexuality and the rejection that gay people face in society on a DAY TO DAY basis.... its no wonder why the suicide rate amongst gay and lesbian youth is so high."

 

Are you actually aware of any who took their own life because they could not be a boy scout? I bet not. Why is it you are so willing to blame your woes on the values of the BSA then on the strong possibillity that for whatever the elements that have determined your homosexuality it is not consistant with the values of the majority of today's society. Isn't it just barely possible that the problem is in your lifestyle and not ours?

 

The Boy Scouts of America breaks the principals contained with the Scout Law when is discriminates against and hurts youth. Our youth are to precious to be discriminated against and hurt, for they are our nation's most precious gift to the world... they are our future Senators, Congressmen, teachers, doctors, lawyers, businessmen, clergy, parents, military servicemembers, and maybe even President.

 

Homosexuality is not a discrimination against any individual for being a youth. It is a discrimination based on publicly supporting a value that the BSA has said very clearly they do not represent. It has nothing to do with youth and in fact you are among a tiny number of youth whose membership was affected in this way. Most were adults.

 

"I will end with this:

If any of you put a stumbling block before one of these little ones who believe in me, it would be better for you if a great millstone were fastened around your neck and you were drowned in the depth of the sea.

The Holy Gospel of our Lord according to Saint Matthew 18:6 New Revised Standard Versi"

 

I find that very distasteful that you take a quote regarding the punishment for keeping children from discovering Jesus and turn it ito a suggestion that keeping children from discoving homosexuality is equivalent. Or that keeping them from Scouting is in any way the same.

 

I understand you anxiety over this situation. You stood up for what you believed in...well so did the BSA, it's just that you do not believe in the same things any longer.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Homosexuality is a choice. There is no proof that a person is born that way. And it is a sin. As a Christian I can't condone homosexuality as OK. It isn't.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Matt

Please do not confuse the individual opinions of any scouter as the viewpoint of the BSA. The BSA has at no time determined what is or is not a sin, that is not their role. Nor has the BSA ever found it to be their place to judge an individual as a sinner, that role in my personal opinion is best left to God.

 

The stand taken by the BSA on homosexuality is simply that it does not represent the values of the BSA. The make no claim of having the only values that matter, only that as a private organization this is what the representatives of the Chartering Organizations have deterrmined they believe in, and want the BSA to represent.

 

Again, The BSA leaves you free to make your choices, you must leave the BSA free to make theirs. No one says that you must agree.

 

 

[Rooster7]

Bob White,

 

Nor has the BSA ever found it to be their place to judge an individual as a sinner, that role in my personal opinion is best left to God.

 

I assume that you have the same high regard for Gods Word as I. With that said, how do you reconcile the verses below with your comment above? I understand that the BSA is not in the business of identifying sin. However, you seem to be implying that we, believers and followers of Christ, should not be identifying sin either.

 

My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. James 5:19 & 20

 

[Bob White]

"However, you seem to be implying that we, believers and followers of Christ, should not be identifying sin either."

 

Where did I imply that? You have inferred that perhaps, but I never implied it.

 

If you want to be able to identify sin so that you can "avoid the near occasion of sin" for yourself or to help others that's fine. But if your goal is to know sin so that you can point at others and judge them as sinners then remember the caution of John 8:11.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Rooster7]

Bob White,

 

I asked for clarification. Your words seemed to imply something left unsaid. That is why I presented a question - not an accusation.

 

As to your reply, I found it to be offensive. Although, to be clear, we all are sinners. What is the caution in John 8:11?

 

[Bob White]

I see no reason for you to take offense. You asked a question and I answered it. In any case, both my posts were clear. I implied nothing, and I cannot control what you might infer. As far as the content of John 8: I am confident you have the appropriate resources at hand to discover the answer to your question.

 

BW

[tjhammer]

>Please do not confuse the individual opinions of any scouter as the viewpoint of the BSA.

 

BW, in your thinly veiled attempt to continue as the "anti-Mori", you fail to understand that you took two posts and 95% more words to say exactly the same thing as him.

 

>>a private organization the BSA has the legal right to determine membership

 

Enough of the red herring. I've not met a single person in this forum that didn't understand AND agree with this. Not one person. So quit using it as a hammer to try and change the subject to "BSA victimhood"... we ALL agree the BSA should have the "right" of association. Even Merlyn agrees with that.

 

>>This is not a matter of "is that right or wrong", it is simply what is.

 

Wrong! This discussion is ONLY about whether the BSA's choice to ban gays is "right or wrong". It's legally our right to make the choice, but are we making the RIGHT choice? "It's about morality, stupid!" (to paraphrase the war room). Now who defines morality, and is that "right or wrong".

 

>>In this case Matt chose to not only belong to, but to start, a group in support of gay/homosexual activity or lifestyle. A preference not supported by the membership criteria of the BSA

 

One of the more obtuse statements I've read, of course. In two short sentences, you state YOUR "facts" that Matt's gay/straight alliance was created to "support gay activity" and "lifestyle", and that being gay was his "preference" (you actually state this backhanded a couple of times in your remarks, but then try to back away in separate remarks). First, Matt started a group that helped show tolerance and counter prejudice. It was to create a safe haven where gay kids (and kids who understood that gay kids are no different than anyone else) could stand together against what can be a VERY hostile world for 14 year olds coming to grips with their sexuality.

 

>>tiger membership, adult partner ... That can be anyone approved by the parent or guardian. I have never heard of a Father/son camporee being done in the BSA

 

Nice. Your "nuance" has been "we didn't kick-out a 14 year old, he "chose" to not meet our membership standards (how innocuous), and now you suggest "the gay dad's can stay home and just have the neighbor stand in their place". It's superb how much "wiggle" room BSA can find to avoid accepting blame for hurt caused by this policy.

 

>>Not as many as you might think about two years ago the BSA had a poll done and found that an overwhelming majority of the membership polled supported the BSA values including their membership criteria.

 

Where's the data, BW? Don't make claims without the specific data, and give us all a chance to review how "scientific" that study was. (For the record, I don't doubt that the BSA's population parallels (and slides right of) the general population on this issue, though I doubt it's as "overwhelming" as you believe. Do you see that overwhelming of a slant to the "right" on this issue within this forum? Think this group is all that non-representative of "real BSA"? And I would love to evaluate the "stats" of that poll on the younger generation of parents with kids just entering Scouting age (where the general population opinion runs 60%+ against gay prejudice). Wonder if the pollsters were savvy enough to consider this?

 

>>Are you actually aware of any who took their own life because they could not be a boy scout? I bet not.

 

Disgusting and insulting. First, for the record (and as explained here before), YES!!!!, I do know of a Scout who tried to take their own life (and thank God failed!). And yes, a huge part of that madness had to do with trying to reconcile how the ONE organization he had spent his entire young life committed to, nearly daily, was telling the world that he was the ONE kind if person so unworthy that they were going to carve out an explicit national ban on him and his "kind". (BTW, try telling him that being gay was some "lifestyle choice" he was in the process of making.)

 

Second, back to the "disgusting and insulting". How dare you (or anyone) be so flippant and dismissive? You've got your opinions, and you're entitled to them. Associate with whomever you want, and treat people how you believe "scouts" should act. But DO NOT assume you have any right to tell me or every group of parents in every local unit across the country how we should treat people. And do not presume that Scouting belongs to you any more than it belongs to us.

 

>>Why is it you are so willing to blame your woes on the values of the BSA then on the strong possibility that for whatever the elements that have determined your homosexuality it is not consistent with the values of the majority of today's society. Isn't it just barely possible that the problem is in your lifestyle and not ours?

 

How can you respect yourself as a Scout and tell that to the face of a 14 year old?

[tjhammer]

I feel like I need to apologize, because after years of discussing this issue in this forum, for the first time I can actually feel my blood pressure rising. While I am responding specifically and directly to other posters, I will continue to label and challenge their ideas, not them personally.

 

I hope most would agree (and my writing on this forum will support) that I have usually been fair - and reasonable - in arguing this issue on this forum. I have tried to avoid being very emotional, and stick to the logic of debate.

 

And while it's true that I am a gay man, who grew up in Scouting and credit Scouting with playing a dominant role in making me the man I am today, I have always avoided any sort of "woe is me, I'm a victim of BSA policy" emotion in this forum. It's really NEVER been about me, personally, and my debate here has mostly to do with the fact that I've had a unique perspective to contribute.

 

But suddenly - after several years and countless debates with the same folks about the same thoughts - something seems to have radically changed for me. I'm finding as I read through posts today that I'm far more agitated and emotional.

 

I took a break tonight, and thought about why I'm suddenly responding differently to the same things I've heard so many times before, and it didn't take me too long to understand.

 

Now in our midst is not just some "nameless" boy who may or may not have been affected by this policy. Now there IS a boy here who WAS affected. I don't know Matt, but I respect the hell out of him for his courage. In so many ways he was far more courageous than I could aspire to be even when he was just 14 years old, and today (not too many years later) he seems to be growing into an intelligent, thoughtful man. Judging by the life he's planned out for himself he is a man Scouting can be proud to have helped build. It's shameful our role in his life was cut short (though in his case, I think he's clearly becoming an even better man for facing and overcoming the manner in which Scouting abandoned him).

 

I'm clearly more agitated today, hearing the same old remarks from the same people, than I have ever been, because I find it so insidious that Scouters could stand "face to face" with this "boy" and tell him (quite explicitly in these posts) that his religious beliefs are wrong, that he brought this all on himself, that he's to blame if he feels persecuted by us (even that the persecution is "in his mind"). I know it's your right to believe these things to Matt (and to other boys who may be reading this), and I don't challenge your right to say them in this forum. But I can still find it insidious.

 

It has nothing to do with youth and in fact you are among a tiny number of youth whose membership was affected in this way. Most were adults.I missed this remark in a previous post until just now. The absurdity of the sentence is self-evident (telling a boy who was affected by the policy (even acknowledging that he was affected) that "it has nothing to do with youth" is lunacy. And it's far more than just the few boys like Matt that have actually been expelled. It's the countless more that suffer quietly or slip away as they come to grips with their sexuality under the veil of BSA's judgment.

 

And its all those other kids - like the ones in Matt's troop who taunted and teased him under the knowing eye of their leaders - who get a not-so-subtle message from BSA that it's OK to think of gay kids as "less than the best kind of citizen" simply because they are gay. It may be Rooster's right to teach his children to believe that way, but the same right should be afforded other parents in other neighborhoods who disagree and want no part of institutionalized prejudice.

 

[Bob White]

At no time did I say I owned the BSA. The BSA is owned by the chartered organizations. The membership rules are set by them. Persoonally I feel to say that the rule is saying that the the person is "unworthy" is simply a tool you and some others use to feign martyrdom. The BSA has never said anything of the sort

 

If you are a 12 year old girl you can't be a menber of the BSA are they "unworthy"? If an army veteran wasn't in an active foriegn theater are they "unworthy" to be in the VFW? Of course not. They simply do not fit the goals and purpose of the private organization.

 

This is not a camping club. This is a educational organization and you don't like what it teaches. Yet you remain a member. Matt on the other and stood up for who he was and what he believed in. He took the risk for his conviction, and he now he doesn't want to pay the price for them. Standing up for who you are and what you believe in is tough. Not everyone can do that. I respect Matt for his conviction. I would respect him more if he accepted the consequences with the same strength of his convictions.

 

Membership in any private organization is not a right, and it is not something you get just because you want it. He chose to violate the membership rules. You chose not to. Matt could have made the same choice you have and remained a member.

 

The BSA did not demand he violate the rules. I certainly did not. If you could retain your membership all these years then why couldn't Matt make the same choice? Scouting is a game with a purpose, it's also a game with rules. Do not choose to violate the rules and then blame it on the game.

 

At no time did I judge Matt as an individual and neither did the BSA. As Matt said himself he reached "a point in his life when he finally becomes consciously aware and mature enough to handle his sexual or religious orientation". What he discovered was that who he came to realize he was, and what the BSA's membership rules are, no longer were the same.

 

The rules were not established to punish Matt for who he is they exist to define what the BSA movement represents. The whole idea behind the freesom of association is to allow groups of people with similar interest to associate without interference. No one has to join, but to be able to join you are required to meet the membership expectations.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)(This message has been edited by Bob White)