What about gay parents?

[Rooster7]

Acco40,

 

I drink alcohol on occasion (never during BSA activities). The BSA does not ban me from outings.

 

Does the BSA consider drinking alcohol to be immoral? No.

 

Does the BSA and/or most of its charters consider drinking alcohol excessively to be immoral? Yes.

 

So, lets change this scenario a little bit. An adult parent announces to other adults in the troop that he likes to drink alcohol in excess and often. Is it not reasonable for that troop to reconsider allowing him to participate on outings? This is a man who will be interacting with the boys. Lets not be naive. There is great potential for him to influence them.

 

Suppose he announces to adults in the troop that he relishes pornography? Is it not reasonable to limit this mans influence over the boys? Wouldnt you, as a parent, want him kept away from your son?

 

The question is not - who has ever acted immorally? This, without doubt, we are all guilty. However, embracing immorality as normal is quite another matter. When this occurs, I think If its not the troops legal right (i.e. within BSA policy), it is certainly within the troops moral right to protect the boys from these peoples influence.

(This message has been edited by Rooster7)

[Rooster7]

Prairie_Scouter,

 

To follow up on your reply

 

While I personally believe there is a link (although not necessarily direct) between homosexuality and pedophilia, that was not my point. My point was - the same argument that folks make in support of homosexuality (i.e., look how normal we are or look how similar we are to you), is the same kind of argument that NAMBLA makes. The appearance of normalcy should not be used as a gage to determine moral righteousness.

 

Secondly, I do not believe the so-called religious right is a small vocal group. If they were, how do you explain the election of George W. Bush (twice!) who openly sought this groups support. If what the religious right stands for, is so counter-intuitive to the morality of the rest of the country, why didnt the majority prevail in the 2004 election? Fluke? Right-Wing conspiracy? Hanging chads? Complacency? Or all of the above?

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

So, I guess it becomes a matter of who gets to decide what's immoral, and for some activities, at what level they become immoral. Sounds like a tough job.

 

Anyway, back to the original topic, it would seem like these parents should be welcomed the same as any other unless they violate some BSA policy. So, same sex couples, unless the *say* they are gay, should be fine, no?

[acco40]

Rooster, I may be wrong but I don't think the BSA has a position paper that states that they believe homosexuality to be immoral. Not the best role model is the language (paraphrased) that they use.

 

I have a SA who smokes. His son obviously knows it. Most of the boys do to. However, he tries his best to do so out of sight of the boys. He is not banned.

 

I don't know the legal definition of avowed. I don't hide the fact that I am married (my wife attends some troop meetings, shares my last name and is the advancement chair). But then again, I don't engage in any sexual activity with her in a Scouting environment! Am I an avowed heterosexual or not??

 

I would think that the BSA would be skating on very thin ice if it banned gay parents from outings. Now, if certain behaviors were demonstrated (preaching, the conservatively brandished "recruiting", etc.) that may be grounds for banishment.

 

If a religious or group of people charter a BSA unit and their belief is that homosexuality is immoral - I guess they could ban self proclaimed homosexuals from attending functions but I'm not sure. Maybe that would be similar to LSD units excluding female leaders?(This message has been edited by acco40)

[Rooster7]

If they are not proclaiming their homosexuality, or demonstrating it in any manner, how can a troop know? Likewise, for any other behavior such as alcoholism, if the adult has kept it hidden whos going to make the accusation and why?

[Rooster7]

I would think that the BSA would be skating on very thin ice if it banned gay parents from outings.

 

Based on what legal grounds? The fact is, if the BSA wanted to become a blatantly bigoted organization (which some have already accused them of being), they have a legal right to do so.

 

The way I see it - If the BSA has any concerns regarding this issue, its how to convey policy to its members so that it cannot be abused by the truly ignorant and/or bigoted. In my opinion, theyve done a good job of that. I think the BSA policy makers understand how such policies can be abused, inciting needless and harmful accusations. Thus, the current policy does not encourage witch-hunts, which is how it should be.

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Rooster,

 

Well, there are those who say that GWB didn't actually "win" 2 elections

Regards why he was elected to a second term, your guess is as good as mine. The country is pretty evenly split between conservatives and liberals at this point, and most elections are about a relatively small number of votes. I'd suspect 2 reasons for the election results...

 

One, the religious conservatives did a very good job of getting their vote out. I think you're right that there was a certain amount of complacency among liberals. It doesn't take much to tip an election.

 

Two, the "don't change presidents during a war" fear. There seemed to be a good deal of evidence of this, according to exit polls during the voting. I can't imagine why people would think this president was doing a good job leading the war in Iraq, but there you have it.

 

Regards gays, my point wasn't that they "appear" normal, it's that they "are" normal. But, that's a debate that's defined in terms of belief systems, which really aren't subject to "evidence" or "proof", so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Rooster7]

Regards gays, my point wasn't that they "appear" normal, it's that they "are" normal. But, that's a debate that's defined in terms of belief systems, which really aren't subject to "evidence" or "proof", so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

I suspect that we will just have to agree to disagree. Regardless, Id like to suggest that through the study of basic biology and genetics, one can easily find evidence supporting the claim that homosexuality is abnormal and behavior based.

 

[matthillnc]

In response to Acco40 and the question of what "avowed" means:

 

In my experiences with the Boy Scouts and my dismissal from the Scouting program, "avowed" simply means that it is known you are gay. I never participated in any sexual activities with anyone in my Troop. Sexual activity has nothing to do with it and is a completely seperate matter.

 

In my case, I started a Gay-Straight Alliance at my high school and there was an article about it in my local paper, The Winston-Salem Journal, and my school paper, The Pine Whispers. The Journal article can be viewed here: http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/media-press/a1_wsj_09122000.htm and the Pine Whispers article here: http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/media-press/a2_pwrjr_10062000.htm

 

The simple words of "Hill, who is homosexual...." within the article was enough to make me an "avowed" homosexual, even though I had up to that point never engaged in any sexual activity, gay or straight.

 

But from other responses to my original post on this issue.... it seems to me as though some of you would want to ban gay parents from being active within their sons' Scouting experiences. If the BSA does that, then they need to revise their membership policies to state: "We will ban any person who is homosexual or any Scout and his parents if his parents are homosexual." If the BSA is going to start bannign gay parents and thereby stop the participation of their sons' then they are not only discriminating against gays... but also against children.

 

May I stress... CHILDREN!!!!!! How is it even close to being moral and ethical for the BSA to discriminate against (and thereby hurt) CHILDREN!

 

MATT HILL

http://www.MattHillNC.com

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com

 

Again, if anyone would like to know the history behind my dismissal from Scouting, you can see it here: http://www.freewebs.com/triads4a/history.html

[Bob White]

Matt,

The BSA has no authority over unregistered youth or adults. BSA rules only affect BSA members. The charter organization who owns the unit can set more stringent rules if they choose to.

 

Your membership was removed from the BSA for a very simple reason. You did not meet the membership requirement once your homosexuality was made public. Lots of people are unable to join private organiztions for not meeting membership requirements not just you. And the BSA is not the only private organization to have membership requirements.

 

Just because you like scouting does not qualify you for membership. You could like the military but you can't join the VFW unless you were in a conflict on foriegn soil. Good luck joining MENSA if your IQ isn't high enough. Try being a religious leader in a synagogue if you are not Jewish.

 

Lots of private organizations have restrictive membership, the BSA just happens to be one that has a rule you did not meet.

 

So there is nothing unique or mysterious as to why you cannot be a member of the BSA. It was due to a decision you made.

 

As a parent non-member the BSA has no authority to keep you from attending a scouting event. The Charter Organization can choose otherwise however.

[ronvo]

BW stated "So there is nothing unique or mysterious as to why you cannot be a member of the BSA. It was due to a decision you made."

 

Which decision is that?

 

[Rooster7]

May I stress... CHILDREN!!!!!! How is it even close to being moral and ethical for the BSA to discriminate against (and thereby hurt) CHILDREN!

 

Assuming a troop can ban homosexual parents from actively participating in an outing, why would it have to preclude the participation of their son as well? I fail to see how you make this correlation.

 

Second, while I happen to like children very much, invoking their name does not make me genuflect. That is to say, no matter the topic of debate, children are not excluded from examination as if their innocence is unquestionable. I want my children to embrace God and His Will for their lives. I owe it to them to monitor who they associate it with very closely and as necessary, to separate them from those that would attempt to nullify Gods Will in their lives. Until they leave my household, Im convinced that God wants me to take this duty seriously.

 

Lastly - discrimination simply means to separate, to make a distinction. As to how much hurt it causes, has more to do with the mindset of the person being discriminated against than the person who discriminates regardless if the discrimination can be rightly justified or not.

 

[cubbingcarol]

Rooster, remember for Cub Scouts, a parent/s or legal guardian must be present on several occasions, this discussion does not just cover troops.

I stick by the BSA rule of no homosexuals allowed as leaders or members but as for my opinion I don't believe gay parents should be banned.

Homosexuality is not a contagious disease. Being in Scouts with them will not turn you or your child into one.

 

Just my $0.02,

Carol

[OldGreyEagle]

I start down this path knowing I will most likley not explain myself the way I want, but that has never stopped me before. We talk about the children, well, in past threads and in current ones we discuss ADD, ODD, dyslexics and any manner of other physical and mental ills. We expect scouters to handle these problems and more, with help of course,but still face issues not found in everyones home. We expect scoutmasters to be the adult friend to the boy that B-P envisioned and now we are to add the "gay" scout?

 

I am sorry if this offends, but sexuality has no place in boy scouts. If a 14 year old boy started telling me what a huge heterosexual he was, active or not, I would be directing him back to this parents, pastor, guidance counsleor, etc. I might be explaining this wrong, but when we start thinking about the "gay" child versus the "straight" child, we have lost, its the child, no more no less. If a scout wishes to overtly demonstrate/discuss sexuality either gay or straight, I don't want a thing to do with it, and neither does the BSA (well I could be wrong on the BSA side, but I doubt it)

 

Now. Matt, I guess you or TJ would be the proper people to ask, but of all the gay parents/legal guardians there have been, what is the breakdown of the childrens sexuality gay vs straight as opposed to the general population.

[Lynda J]

BSAs stand on gays in scouting has hurt us. We have lost funding, we have also lost support of some churches. Because they see it as a discrination against one group. I keep hearing the same arguments about gays that we listened to years ago about blacks.

My very best friend on this earth is gay. They have been together 38 years this year. (Heck of a lot longer then my first marrage lasted) This couple raised two wonderful children. ONe boy one girl. Neither of which are gay. They are great kids. Stable, smart and very well adjusted. Neither have ever been in trouble with the police or have every done drugs. Both made Honor Roles in their school, both earned full scholarships to college. One graduated 3 in a class of over 500. They were wonderful parents and are wonderful grandparents. Did my own grown kids play and spend the night there. YES. Every kid in the neighborhood played at their house. And all the neighbors knew they were a same sex couple. Did any of us care. NO.

The image that some want to portray of gays as out looking for young boys is so wrong. We need to be watching Preist a lot closer than we need to be watching gays.