What about gay parents?

[matthillnc]

Okay... so BSA policy is that no "avowed homosexual" can be a member or leader in the Boy Scouts.

 

What about Boy Scouts who have gay parents? Parents are supposed to play a vital role in the Scouting experiences of their boys, especially fathers. What about gay parents? The BSA policy doesn't address this issue.

 

What happens if there is a boy with a gay dad? Can his dad be active in the Troop too? Is he allowed to go on camping trips with his son and his son's Troop? If not, what about Cub Scouts who have to have a parent go along with them on camping trips or, if not, the kid doesn't go.

 

My point is this... It seems to me as though the BSA policy not only discriminates against gay youth or adults who want to be youth members or adult leaders, but also kids who have gay parents.

 

What do you all think?

 

MATT HILL

http://www.MattHillNC.com

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com

[evmori]

Good question, Matt.

 

Homosexuals don't meet the membership requirements to be members of the BSA. As far as a Scout with homosexual parents, letting them or one of them go on trips would be up to the unit.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[gavvin]

Well, regardless of any clues, I would never assume that anyone was gay. Unless I was told told straight out by the person themselves, I would never know for certain and would not assume anything.

 

In the case where I have been told by the person that they are, in fact, gay I would treat them just like any other parent with the exception that I would not attempt to recruit them into a leadership position.

 

Unless someone is dead-set on being a problem, I think you will find that gays are people just like the rest of us and as parents they want to encourage thier kids to succeed and want to be there to share thier scouting experiences.

 

In the case of problems, I would handle them as they occur on a case-by-case basis, usually starting with a talk on why particular behavior is not appropriate at scouting functions all the way to asking them not to return if they cannot act in a manner consistant with the setting in the most extreme cases.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Gavvin

[tjhammer]

Matt, first keep in mind that you are a "white elephant", or something several members of this forum prefer to believe has not existed. The fact that you were a 14 year old boy coming to grips with your sexuality while a very active member of Scouting is something some people pretend is not affected by this policy. (And the misinformation, apprehension or hate you experienced along the way from your unit leader, other Scouts or the BSA is "insignificant", statistically.)

 

In reality, we know you're far from alone in your ordeal, and thousands of Scouts just like you are affected (some very deeply) by this "gay policy" which is both incongruent with other "BSA policy" (DRP) and Scouting philosophy.

 

The question you raise is another example of the uneven understanding or enforcement of the "gay ban". In reality, the BSA has testified before the Supreme Court that they would ban any "avowed homosexual" because they're a "poor role model". and they would also ban anyone that spoke out in favor of homosexuals and argued that the BSA policy is unjust.

 

Parents of gay kids (BTW, I've mentioned here before that there are currently more than 3.5 million kids being raised by gay parents in the USA, a number that's rapidly increasing, so your question is far from theoretical) would be caught in the trap (and so, very likely, would their kids). The parents would not be able to register and participate with their child, and their child would be compelled to "keep secret" the fact that they have loving gay parents. The kids would be in an organization that taught that their parents were "unworthy", bad citizens.

 

In reality, it's not too likely that your scenario will be tested very often, though. (As a gay man likely to have kids sooner rather than later, it pains me to think that Scouting will not be part of the equation in raising them.) The fact that BSA is so openly hostile to gays would keep most gay parents from placing their kids in that environment. (Remember your own experience, where your unit leaders were clueless of the "real" policy and instead acted out on the limited information BSA has provided them, and how the other boys in your unit were allowed to imitate the BSA's policy with hostile and demeaning attitudes.)

 

1. The increasing population of kids of gay parents and the radically different views of all young parents with kids entering Scouting age will continue to be in contrast with BSA's "gay policy" and will be seen with continued shrinking of our membership.

 

2. Allowing local units to make their own decision on the "moral fitness" of leaders and associate with like minded families on whether

little Billy's two dads could be good leaders is the only honest solution to this quagmire.

 

[OldGreyEagle]

The standards of the BSA are clear, all activities are open to all parents and or legal guardians. If the gay parents of a scout wanted to accompany him on an outing, then there is no way a unit could prohibit it.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Hi Matt,

 

And thanks for providing your thoughts. I think you should continue your efforts; you show how "normal" gays are, regardless of the religious rights efforts to condemn gays as some sort of "religious abomination". As gays continue to become visible in the mainstream, my hope is that BSA will see the err of its ways and make some changes. Remember that there's nothing in Scouting or BSA underlying "law" that disallows gays. It's merely an interpretation. Saying that gays are a "bad role model" is just an opinion of those in power. Leadership can change, and so can opinions.

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

I respectfully disagree. Local units have some control over who is allowed on outings. There are many circumstances in which I can envision a troop banning the participation of certain adults.

[OldGreyEagle]

Rooster, I am not talking about belligerent parents, parents who bring alcohol or abusive/profane/vulgar language or other distractions. On what pretext would you prohibit a gay parent from comming on a campout?

 

The gay parent(s) would be held to the same standard of behavior as any other parent.

[Bob White]

OGE is correct.

[Rooster7]

Prairie_Scouter

 

And thanks for providing your thoughts. I think you should continue your efforts; you show how "normal" gays are, regardless of the religious rights efforts to condemn gays as some sort of "religious abomination".

 

I see three major flaws in your assertion, which attempts to portray people of faith in a very negative way.

 

1) First and foremost, its my experience that most people of faith (Christians, Jews, and others) are not on a mission to condemn gays. They are, trying to uphold a moral standard. Folks, who identify sin as sin, are not claiming to be sinless or condemning those who practice a certain sin. They are, speaking truth as they know it.

2) There is no religious rights effort. There is no conspiracy against those who are not religious. There is a ground swell of people in this country who feel God and morality has been discounted for far too long. If there is movement of sorts, it is only a reaction to the pendulum which has swung long and hard against all things that reflect a belief in God.

3) The appearance of normal has nothing to do with right and wrong. There are plenty of folks who appear normal in every way but continue to embrace immorality. This is not limited to homosexuality. Take pedophiles for example, NAMBLA has argued for years that if society would simply accept their love that wed realize that they are normal in every way.

 

As gays continue to become visible in the mainstream, my hope is that BSA will see the err of its ways and make some changes. Remember that there's nothing in Scouting or BSA underlying "law" that disallows gays. It's merely an interpretation. Saying that gays are a "bad role model" is just an opinion of those in power. Leadership can change, and so can opinions.

 

True enough. Leadership and opinions may change. However, despite your assertion, the BSA has spelled out in writing that homosexual members will not be accepted. There is no BSA Constitution to interpret. The leaders of the BSA have no legal obligation to stay true to someone elses belief concerning their original charter. They are free to change the organization in any way. Our government and its judicial system have nothing to say about it. Having said the above, it is my belief that those empowered to lead the BSA are staying true to their original charter.

 

[evmori]

I'm still trying to figure out the term "gay parents". Kids conceived prior to becoming gay? Same sex parents?

 

And if it is know that parents are gay, why wouldn't a unit be able to ban them from trips?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Rooster7]

OGE,

 

When I made my original post I was thinking of a number of factors related to behaviorsome of which, you noted in your reply to me.

 

Still, I am not quite convinced you are right. It seems perfectly reasonable to me, if homosexuality is deemed by the BSA to be unacceptable behavior, which precludes one from membership then a troop should be able to prevent parents who claim to embrace that behavior from attending a Scouting event.

 

But since I dont have any BSA documentation in front me to counter your words, I will acquiesce to your superior knowledge of written policy.

 

[ronvo]

And what about TIGER CUBS where a parent must register as an adult partner. (Thought I'm sure many here would never consider them Scouters)

 

Here we aren't just talking about a parent on an outing but a REGISTERED MEMBER OF BSA!

 

And if the parents are a same sex couple living together raisng children how can you ignore the fact that they are gay. (As opposed to single gay parent who may have custody)

 

I believe that the BSA will eventually have to give up their useless crusade and and do what is right.

 

Maybe some of the millions $ can then be used for better purpose than paying attorney fees. May be they could spend it on SCOUTING.

 

 

ronvo

[acco40]

"It seems perfectly reasonable to me, if homosexuality is deemed by the BSA to be unacceptable behavior, which precludes one from membership then a troop should be able to prevent parents who claim to embrace that behavior from attending a Scouting event. "

 

Rooster, that is my objection - the BSA has not defined homosexuality as a behavior! I believe all of my children are heterosexual - and celibate.

 

I drink alcohol on occasion (never during BSA activities). The BSA does not ban me from outings.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Rooster, thanks for your thoughts and reply to my post. Let me try to clarify some things and respond to your comments.....

 

As I said, I do believe that the "religious right" and by that I mean what I can best describe as the "conservative religious movement", has on its agenda a general attack on the rights of gays by portraying them as something "wrong" (the word "abomination" is a description used by a conservative Christian friend of mine). So, I wasn't talking about "most people of faith", as you commented, but the very distinct element within that group that I described above.

 

I don't believe that there is a general conspiracy against those that are non-religious in this country. I think the wording of my post may have led you to think that I was saying something about "religious rights" where what I meant was *the* religious right, ie, the more conservative wing of the Christian religious movement. I don't believe that there was ever a conspiracy against all things that reflect a belief in God, either. In both cases, I think what we've seen is a visible minority making it's views known. There's a lot of propoganda on both sides.

 

I figured that someone would be unhappy with my portrayal of gays as "normal". I don't know if it was your intent to imply some association among gays, pedophiles, NAMBLA, and general immorality, but I can't see where that assertion would be supported by any knowledgebase I'm aware of. I just don't buy the assertion that gays are somehow inately "immoral". That's a strictly religious view that I don't subscribe to. I just don't see the basis for it.

 

And, yes, you are correct in recent times, BSA has specifically outlined a policy against gays, but there's nothing explicit in Scouting's founding principals that mandated that, to my knowledge. The basis for this seems to usually be some assertion that "gays aren't good role models" or that it somehow violates that idea that "A Scout is Clean". The first would seem to be an opinion based on specific religious views, and the second is nebulous enough to be sort of a "catchall" for anything the current leadership sees as undesirable.

 

Finally, in regards to your statement that I was trying to "portray people of faith in a very negative way", I would say "no way, no how". However, I DO think that the extreme conservative elements of those who consider themselves people of faith are a vocal, minor subset that do not reflect the views of the majority, and their views should be taken with that in mind.