IS the BSA a religious organization?

[Kudu]

Kahuna: I understand, but lawyers usually come in twos :-/

[Fuzzy Bear]

I have tried to do this before, so one more time for the Gipper.

 

The BSA has a religious connotation because it asks each of its members to profess a belief in a Higher Power. It does not define the word and opens the door to an almost unlimited number of belief systems. It also asks that its' members not be openly gay.

 

The BSA is not a religious organization because it does not have one belief system that it asks of its' membership. In other words, it does not act like a religious organization, i.e., a church. It is more business than religion by a very large margin. The individual units may say prayers to their God but even they do not act like a church and are open to others outside the denomination.

 

The BSA tries its' best to act like an organization that brings people together under one banner, united for a common purpose, a Worldwide Brotherhood. This gets complicated because while bringing people together for a common purpose, it excludes some groups, i.e, Gays and Atheists.

 

Now, on the surface this appears to be a contradiction because the BSA asks that its' membership believe in a Higher Power and not be openly gay. So, those that do not believe in a Higher Power or profess gaiety cannot be part of the Worldwide Brotherhood. A better term would be a Worldwide Brotherhood, limited.

 

The BSA does not profess perfection either, as noted on so many occasions in the local and national news. It has said multiple times that it is a private club with limits on its' membership. It does not profess to be a democracy or have a creed. So, it would be difficult for anyone to call it anything other than another big business.

 

Now, most businesses fall under the Civil Rights laws. So, I would imagine that if someone wanted to pursue legal action that they should look at being denied equal access. At that point, the BSA would then turn into a religious organization. They could develop an open creed with regards to God and develop a code of ethics that would exclude any that will not conform to its' tenets. Then, they could achieve their purpose of attempting to unite all in a Worldwide Brotherhood of like-minded persons while attempting to convert those that arent.

 

Simple,

 

FB

[Kudu]

> excluding godless heathens - while still allowing "god" to be defined so

> broadly as to be able to include everyone except those who baldly use

> the word "atheist" in conjunction with their belief system.

 

Trevorum: It is the Scouts who baldly use the word "atheist" in conjunction with their belief system, who come back years later as priests, ministers, rabbis, etc., if their assertions are greeted with interest and they are required "to do their best" to define their terms. "What is this 'God' that you don't believe in?"

 

Fuzzy: The BSA is a religious vampire organization. An agnostic is just an atheist who hasn't yet been bitten by a religious fundamentalist :-/

[Trevorum]

"profess gaiety" ???

[GernBlansten]

gaiety - The belief in fairies, light loafers or women in comfortable shoes.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Trev,

"gaiety" is the noun for the adverb gay which is used to name the group, unless someone objects, then the person may substitute any word they wish.

 

My message was not intended to be distorted by word usage of one term but obviously that is all that came across.

 

FB

 

 

 

[madkins007]

I like the idea of describing the BSA as a Worldwide Brotherhood, and I often find myself wishing we followed some other more international aspects a little more closely.

 

I also agree that the BSA is more interested in 'spirituality' than in 'religion'. Where I work, we did a 'wellness day' program that included some spirituality aspects and the definition of the term we found and used was:

"Integrating our beliefs and values with our actions. A sense of purpose, direction, and awareness."

 

I think the BSA could use a definition like this to refocus their teachings on spirituality and religious duty, AND end up not having barriers to people based on labels.

 

A LOT of us do not really live what we believe because we have never thought about it or been challenged that way. Scouting DOES this- at least to a some extent. We try to hold boys to the 12 Laws and the Oath.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for us to evaluate youth and leader's spiritual growth based on that sort of standard RATHER than basing it entirely on self-applied labels- whether the label is 'Catholic', 'Buddist', or 'Atheist'?

 

And, since at least some part of our on-going insistance on religion is because of the large number of churches that support the program, would'nt we still be keeping them pretty happy?

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

a friend to all and a brother to every other Scout...

[Trevorum]

Fuzzy, no offense intended! The turn of phrase just struck my funny bone, as if sexual orientation was a creed we can choose to profess or not like Judaism or Islam!

[Kudu]

> I also agree that the BSA is more interested in 'spirituality' than in

> 'religion'.

 

I say just the opposite. If the BSA was spiritual, they would see atheist children as spiritual beings.

 

> We try to hold boys to the 12 Laws and the Oath.

 

That would work better if William Hillcourt's original first Method of Scouting was restored, "The Scout Way: A Game, Not a Science." The problem is that "Duty to God" in the BSA is a fundamentalist moral absolute, and not the goal of a game.

 

> Wouldn't it make more sense for us to evaluate youth and leader's

> spiritual growth based on that sort of standard RATHER than

> basing it entirely on self-applied labels- whether the label is 'Catholic',

> 'Buddist', or 'Atheist'?

 

You mean using the Scout Oath & Law as the "standard"? The problem is that they can be interpreted in different ways, so who exactly is qualified to evaluate? My answer is that what we should be evaluating is the Scout's UNDERSTANDING of the Oath and Law, and to that end I involve them in the process using the "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt":

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/spirit

 

To me the important part of the Scout Oath is the promise to "do my best." Atheist Scouts tend to be more honest than Scouts would couldn't care less, but they can be just as lazy and need to do their best to define the God that they don't believe in.

 

> And, since at least some part of our on-going insistance on religion

> is because of the large number of churches that support the program,

> would'nt we still be keeping them pretty happy?

 

That is the million dollar question: exactly what goes on in the Religious Relationships Committee? I think we have to take the mega-religions that control it at their word, they enjoy being mean-spirited, and kicking atheist kids out of Scouting IS what keeps them "pretty happy."

 

As long as those who feel otherwise continue to try to change the BSA from within and do not set off to create alternative Scouting associations, the religions that make up the vast majority of Religious Relations Committee will remain "pretty happy" :-/

[Fuzzy Bear]

Trev,

I was not referring to aetiology but the choice to make a profession of sexual orientation. Also, no offense accepted because now that I think about it, it was a strange twist of wording.

FB

[Fuzzy Bear]

kudu,

 

If I follow you, viewing atheists as spiritual beings would defeat the atheists intended definition and would be more offensive and demeaning than the former exclusionary goal.

 

Understanding and accepting the moral imperative probably should be the goal. It would encompass all that is beyond one's grasp but within the realm of understanding. It could be modeled, discussed and practiced so one could try and attain to ones own goal of perfection. It would be an open-ended definition that would fit one's definition of a Higher Power. People could then discuss openly how they understand what they know and how they know it without fear of retribution. It would deepen and broaden mutual understanding and respect to allow people to listen instead of talk down to others.

 

FB

 

 

[packsaddle]

Unless I know the person is a liar, if they tell me, "Boy Scouts of America is a religious organization,..." I tend to take that at face value.

 

BSA is a religious organization that limits "...the

occupancy of its real property, which it owns or operates for other than a commercial purpose, to persons who believe in God or to give preference to persons who believe in God."

Seems clear to me.

 

[Kudu]

> If I follow you, viewing atheists as spiritual beings would defeat the

> atheists intended definition and would be more offensive and demeaning

> than the former exclusionary goal.

 

Fuzzy: Scouts don't have to know how you view them :-/

 

I've only known eight self-proclaimed atheist Scouts, but they all were pretty sharp and included three of my Senior Patrol Leaders. None of them were easily "offended or demeaned," nor did they have an "intended definition" beyond a straightforward disbelief in supernatural forces.

 

All things considered, young atheists would rather play dodge ball.

 

Spiritual beings don't all have supernatural qualities. I'm thinking of Carl Sagan's descriptions of reverence as the awe and wonder that mathematicians and scientists feel in the joy of creating a new equation or theory. I also use Sagan's quotation of what he called Einstein's paraphrase of Spinoza's definition of God "as the sum-total of all the natural laws in the universe."

 

After the first Scoutmaster Conference in which a Scout defines the God that he doesn't believe in, I ask him to explain what an atheist would find wrong with the natural law guy.

 

This understanding of God is usually called "pantheism" which is also the term sometimes used to describe the Scouting theology of Baden-Powell and the writings of his cleric father, see:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/beads.htm

 

I'm not sure that the elder Baden Powell would agree:

 

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/order_nature/pantheism.htm

 

At any rate, if you don't get into a contest of wills with boys, they usually move on to new interests. I haven't yet encountered any young atheists that stuck with it for more than six to eight months.

 

> Understanding and accepting the moral imperative probably should

> be the goal.

 

I'm not familiar with "the moral imperative."

 

I use "Roses & Thorns" at every campout. In Scoutmaster Conferences I test the Scout's UNDERSTANDING of the words in the Oath & Law by asking what they DO.

 

Beyond that, the only Scouting that I know how to do is outdoor Advancement. The "big questions" come from the awe and wonder of encountering the forces of nature, and the experience of sometimes "helping other people at all times."

 

Baden-Powell's "Religion of the Backwoods" and "Practical Christianity" coupled with William Hillcourt's explanation of the Patrol Method provides what I consider to be the Scouting experience.

 

The Scouts draw their own conclusions.