Federal judge says DOD can't fund Boy Scout outing

[evmori]

Once again Merlyn, horse puckey! There is no 1st Amendment violation here!

 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,"

You agreed this isn't happening.

 

"or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Not being done.

 

"or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;"

Nothing here.

 

"or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

Nothing here!

 

And those religious leaders????? One is a former minister. That's like being an ex-smoker!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[OldGreyEagle]

Merlyn, I wasnt aware the military "ran" the jamboree, I know the many sub camp commissioners and myriad staffers would be surprised to hear that as well.

[blankmeyer]

I posted a reaction to this on my blog at http://blankmeyer.blogspot.com

 

Basically, I ignore the ACLU challenge that the Boy Scouts are a religious organization and cannot receive funding because of their requirement to believe in God and focus on the fact that it is worth it to the military to spend the $7 million on the Boy Scout event each year.

 

 

[Kahuna]

Merlyn says: On what grounds? You can't simply say "I like the BSA and want the government to finance Jambo" over and over, you know. You need to make actual legal arguments on why this decision should be overturned.

 

On the grounds that the decision is constitutionally wrong. I'm not going to get into the legal argument that has been made over and over on this forum. I base my statement on the line of cases that have made their way to the USSC, including Dale. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

There is no 1st Amendment violation here!

 

Ed, you are incapable of understanding the first amendment. You think it's legal for the government to financially support a group that excludes atheists, yet you also insist that the BSA can't kick you out of their private club if you say something they don't like (as you've said in another thread). Wrong on both counts.

 

OGE writes:

Merlyn, I wasnt aware the military "ran" the jamboree,

 

I said "help run". Here's part of the judge's decision; NSJ=Nat'l Scouting Jamboree:

 

The cost of providing support for the NSJ varies from year to year, but for the previous

two NSJs in 1997 and 2001, the DOD spent approximately $6 million and $8 million,

respectively, on the Jamboree. These funds were used to pay for services provided in support of

the event itself, but also for the costs of transporting and billeting the large influx of soldiers

brought to Fort A.P. Hill to perform services during the event.

...

In 1997, the

DOD spent $150,000 to purchase general medical supplies, more than $13,000 to purchase

pediatric medical supplies, and $468,000 to restore sites and to repair and return all borrowed

vehicles and equipment to their proper owners after the NSJ was over.

...

Some of the appropriated funds have also been used to support Scouts earning merit

badges, for military performing units, for publicity of DODs support of the Jamboree, for travel

of DOD personnel, and for transportation of equipment.

 

I think "help run" is a reasonable description. Do you think the military recruiters need $13,000 in pediatric medical supplies, or is that for the benefit of the attending Scouts?

 

As for arguments that this decision will be overturned, I still haven't seen anyone state a reason why.

[SR540Beaver]

GernBlansten,

 

Well, since you asked, you can read all about it here:

 

http://www.aphill.army.mil/boysscout.asp

 

Here is a short blurb to whet your appetite:

 

Why does the Army provide personnel from many military units for the National Jamboree? Why send engineers, telephone specialists, automotive mechanics, physicians and nurses, helicopter pilots and even air traffic controllers for a Boy Scouts of America event? The answer is training. The National Jamboree offers the Army an opportunity to sharpen the skills of its Regular, Reserve, and National Guard troops in a major operation containing vast logistical challenges ranging from building roads to installing water, sewer, electrical, and telephone systems for a tent city of 35,000 inhabitants.

 

That is why it is taxpayer money well spent. In addition to armor and equipment needs, it gives them real world skill practice to do their job when they do have to fight.

[evmori]

Merlyn,

The only thing (beside giving birth) that I am incapable of is understanding your logic.

 

The BSA doesn't exclude atheists. Atheists don't meet the membership requirements of the BSA. Neither do girls!

 

And once again, there ya go telling the poster he/she is either stupid or incapable. Good tactic! To bad it doesn't work.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 peter 4:10

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

The BSA doesn't exclude atheists. Atheists don't meet the membership requirements of the BSA.

 

Ed, sophistry doesn't work in court.

[scoutldr]

"The National Jamboree offers the Army an opportunity to sharpen the skills of its Regular, Reserve, and National Guard troops in a major operation containing vast logistical challenges ranging from building roads to installing water, sewer, electrical, and telephone systems for a tent city of 35,000 inhabitants."

 

Without choosing sides, I find this argument to be ludicrous. The last time the Army needed a tent city, it was built by Halliburton, Inc. and Brown & Root.

 

[GernBlansten]

8 million dollars to host a BSA party. HMMMMM...

We have men and women dieing almost daily in Iraq and Afghanistan. Most due to substandard armor and equipment. Don't you see the problem here?

How many uparmored Humvees would 8 million dollars buy? How many lives would it save?

 

I just think the Pentagon has its priorites a bit out of line.

 

We are at war people. Isn't it time to make a few sacrifices like forego a Jamboree on the military dime?

[GernBlansten]

"That is why it is taxpayer money well spent. In addition to armor and equipment needs, it gives them real world skill practice to do their job when they do have to fight. "

 

In peacetime, I would agree with you. Right now, we have a wonderful training site just yonder of the Euphrates River that can fulfill all the training needs you specified. Real world ones too. Nothing better to practice your skills than to do it on a live patient.

[madkins007]

Hey, Merlyn- don't I know you from either the old Ask Jeeves AnswerPoint or Internet Infidels forums- your handle looks awfully familiar!

 

If so, hi!

[matthillnc]

Hi, everyone... I'm new to the scouter.com as a registered user, but I have seen stuff on here before.

 

The Government should not fund the BSA... not because it violates the 1st Amendment (I agree with those of you who say funding the BSA is not a violation of the 1st Amendment), but because it discriminates against the youth of America.

 

The Boy Scouts OPENLY and WITHOUT REGRET discriminate against gay and atheist YOUTH (as in children, the future of our great nation).

 

I find it shameful that the BSA discriminates against youth and I find it shameful that my taxpayer money is being used to fund the hurting and discriminating of more youth like myself.

 

I'm not anti-BSA, but I am anti-the BSA which discriminates against youth. Heck, I was a Boy Scout, I can't be anti-Scouts, because I love the Scouts too much and love everything that they ever taught me, but they shouldn't be funded by the Government. No group which hurts youth should be funded by the Government.

 

I've posted an entry at my blog about the Court ruling, read it if you like:

http://matthillnc.blogspot.com/2005/07/judge-rules-boy-scouts-cannot-receive.html

 

~MATT HILL~

www.MattHillNC.com

 

P.S. - And since my name has appeared in these forums before, http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=68779&p=16 , let me remind you all... I'm Matt Hill, now 19 years old, the 14 year old Scout who was kicked out for being gay in December 2000, formerly of Troop 715, New Philadelphia Moravian Church, Old Hickory Council, Winston-Salem, NC

For More Info:

http://www.freewebs.com/triads4a/history.html

http://www.uncg.edu/~mmhill3/public_life.html

http://www.inclusivescouting.net/bsa/cases/hill/

http://vernonrobinson.com/cgi-data/news/files/104.shtml(This message has been edited by matthillnc)

[evmori]

Nice word for spin, Merlyn. It's OK for you & the ACLU to say the BSA discriminates against atheists but it's not OK for the BSA to have a membership requirement that requires belief in God? And that violates what part of the 1st Amendment?

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[scoutldr]

Welcome, Matt. I'm sure your opinions will be treated with respect and we hope you will show us the same courtesy. Contrary to some on this forum, it is possible to disagree without being disagreeable.

 

However, in your blog, you state, "The Justice Department spends more than six to seven million dollars every four years in funding for the Scouts."

 

I'm sure you meant to say "Defense Department".