Federal judge says DOD can't fund Boy Scout outing

[fgoodwin]

http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=3567478

 

CHICAGO A federal judge in Chicago says the Pentagon can't fund the National Boy Scout Jamboree after this year.

 

U-S District Court Judge Blanche Manning recently signed an injunction that bars the Defense Department from financially supporting future jamborees, which draw thousands of Boy Scouts from across the nation every four years.

 

The injunction doesn't affect the event scheduled for July 25th at Army Fort A-P Hill in Virginia.

 

Manning's injunction follows her earlier ruling that the Defense Department support violates the constitutional guarantee of government neutrality toward religion.

 

The lawsuit was filed on behalf of religious leaders who oppose the use of government funds to support the Scouts.

 

Boy Scout spokesman Bob Bork says he expects the ruling to be overturned on appeal.

[madkins007]

While I personally am AGAINST the BSA's ban on atheists, I am also appalled by how far from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" (Bill of Rights, Article 1, part 1)we have come.

 

How does funding a Jamboree, which represents Scouts from hundreds of religious backgrounds, qualify as 'establishment of religion'?

 

Rhetorical question, of course. The current environment is the complete seperation of 'church and state', based on dozens of establishing legal precedents. I know, I know.

 

Lessee- we can't celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, or even Saturnalia in school or have ANY song with even the vaguest hint of religion in it. Even Santa is suspect. We can't have any sorts of blessings at any school event.

 

And yet... our money still says 'in God we trust' and some school districts are forced to teach some form of 'creation science'.

 

 

 

Aw, the heck with it. Why don't we just go back to changing the site every cycle, or just buy a chunk of land near Philmont or Irving TX. I really don't want National spending millions more of our hard-earned dollars fighting this too.

[GernBlansten]

Point of reason please...

The Pentagon has much more pressing needs right now. They should not be funding a Jamboree for BSA when our men and women are fighting in foreign lands with substandard armour and equipment. Please. Shouldn't the Pentagon be spending the money on people who really need it?

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

madkins007 writes:

 

How does funding a Jamboree, which represents Scouts from hundreds of religious backgrounds, qualify as 'establishment of religion'

 

Because the BSA insists on excluding membership based on religious requirements. It doesn't matter if the specific religious requirements are "believe in god" or "accept Jesus as your lord and savior" or "anyone who isn't Jewish" or for that matter "atheists only".

 

The government can't fund such religiously exclusive private clubs.

 

Lessee- we can't celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, or even Saturnalia in school or have ANY song with even the vaguest hint of religion in it. Even Santa is suspect. We can't have any sorts of blessings at any school event.

 

Public schools shouldn't "celebrate" religious holidays, as families and individuals ought to decide what religious holy days they celebrate, instead of having some anonymous school board decide what religious celebrations will get official recognition, or what god(s) will be asked to bless "our" school or curse the opposing school of this week's football competition.

 

And yet... our money still says 'in God we trust' and some school districts are forced to teach some form of 'creation science'.

 

"Our" money did just fine before a couple of religious fanatics (including Salmon P. Chase) had that put on currency, and the ACLU is fighting 'creation science' because it's really teaching religion dressed up as science.

[SeattlePioneer]

A few more Bush appointments to the courts of appeal and Supreme Court should resolve this kind of issue for a few more decades.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

[evmori]

Horse puckey Merlyn!

 

Funding a BSA event is not establishing a religion! That is the most outrageous stretch of the 1st Amendment I have ever heard! And it will be overturned.

 

So how do you like your crow, fried or grilled?

 

ACLU = American Cash Lover's Union

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10(This message has been edited by evmori)

[FScouter]

"They should not be funding a Jamboree for BSA when our men and women are fighting in foreign lands with substandard armour and equipment."

 

How about a 10% surtax on top of our federal income tax to pay for more armor and equipment? Maybe a 15% surtax and we could send more men too.

[OldGreyEagle]

From attending the last Jamboree, I would say the federal money was well spent on a 10 day long recruitment event. The military wants to keep the manpower (peoplepower) comming in as well.

 

And merlyn, come up with 35,000 atheisists in the prime demographics and the US military will spend bunches of bucks on a recruiting party for them as well.

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Personally, I'd like to think that the DOD looks at all the good work that Scouting does, and is supporting it on that basis, kind of looking beyond the current issues with BSA as conservative religious elements try, with success right now, to impress their belief system on the organization.

 

As some of us believe in regard to Mr Bush's war, "if you can't support the war, you should still always support the troops". In a similar way, you might say, "if you can't support BSA, you should still support the Scouts". I'd like to think that that's how DOD is thinking.

[emb021]

"The lawsuit was filed on behalf of religious leaders who oppose the use of government funds to support the Scouts."

 

I would be curious as to who these 'religious leaders' are and what religion(s) they represent.

 

Claiming that we violate the 'establishment of religion' clause or that the BSA is a 'religiously exclusive private club' is nonsense. The BSA expects only that you can meet the concept of 'Duty to God' as YOU see it. It does not require that you believe in a particular religion. Most "religiously exclusive private clubs" require that you accept THEIR *particular* belief. The BSA does not. Same thing with 'establishment of religion'. It usually means establishing a particular religion.

 

Keep in mind that "Duty to God" is a world-wide fundamental principle of Scouting. Without it, we aren't doing scouting.

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Here's the posting from the ACLU website that names the parties involved and their religious affiliation (not agreeing or disagreeing, just providing the info)....

 

CHICAGO -- Two well-known Chicago religious leaders today hailed an injunction by U.S. District Court Judge Blanche Manning that bars the Pentagon from spending millions of dollars to support future Boy Scout Jamborees (the only youth organization event so funded by the Pentagon).

 

The judges decision is the most recent action in a case brought by the American Civil Liberties Union of Illinois on behalf of religious and community leaders from Chicago who were alarmed at the favored treatment afforded by several governmental entities to the Boy Scouts of America, despite the BSAs religious requirements for participation. The injunction does not cover the Jamboree already scheduled for this summer.

 

Two lead plaintiffs in the case filed in 1999, Reverend Eugene Winkler and Rabbi Gary Gerson, stated today that the judges order helps maintain the critical constitutional principle of government neutrality towards religion.

 

"Government has an obligation to be neutral in religious activities," said Rev. Winkler, a former pastor at the First United Methodist Church in Chicago. "Government must be neutral because we are a nation of many religious views -- as well as those who do not practice a religion. The expenditure of $8 million by the Pentagon for an organization that requires young people to affirm a belief in God -- and the simultaneous exclusion of secular organizations from this benefit -- undermines that principle of neutrality. Judge Manning recognized this fact and took appropriate action."

 

The Boy Scouts of America, a private organization, require youth who participate in their activities to affirm a belief in God and expels youth who decline to do so. Yet Congress and the Pentagon have chosen to provide the Boy Scouts -- and no other youth organization - with a unique and lucrative benefit which, for this summers Jamboree, amounts to $8 million in federal spending to assist the Boy Scouts in providing a summer camp experience for its youth. No other youth organization is allowed to compete for this generous federal benefit, the ACLU noted.

 

The injunction follows a March 16, 2005 decision by Judge Manning ruling that the Department of Defenses special treatment of the Boy Scouts violates the Constitutions requirement of governmental neutrality towards religious activity. The religious leaders who brought the case applauded the decision.

 

Pentagon support for the quadrennial Jamboree extends far beyond simply providing a venue for the event. Indeed, evidence in the case demonstrated that the Pentagons $8 million expenditure included a half-million dollars for temporary workers to erect and break down tents and $65,000 for commemorative mementos to mark the Jamboree.

 

The direct funding provided to the Jamboree -- at levels offered to no other youth group -- is particularly alarming not only because of the BSAs exclusions of non-believers but also because of the explicitly religious aspects of the Jamboree, the ACLU said. Troop leaders are issued a guidebook by the Boy Scouts of America indicating that a prayer book is "required personal camping equipment" for all youth attendees. The BSA also issues a "Duty to God" booklet for each participant that recommends prayers for each day of the Jamboree.

 

Most important, however, is the exclusion of non-believers from this government-funded event. Because of this, Judge Manning found, the statute that provides special treatment and special funding for the Boy Scouts Jamboree is not neutral with regards to religion. The Judges decision reasoned that the government aid was "not offered to a broad range of groups; rather, it is specifically targeted toward the Boy Scouts, whichis a religious organization from which agnostics and atheists are excluded."

 

"This is not an attack on the Boy Scouts," said Rabbi Gerson of Oak Park Temple. "Rather, it is a challenge to the federal governments preferential treatment of a religious organization. Government simply cannot give special treatment to a private group that excludes young men who do not profess a particular religious faith."

 

The decision resolves one more element of a lawsuit first filed in 1999. The ACLU of Illinois, acting on behalf of Reverend Winkler, Rabbi Gerson and others, challenged the use of public funds by the Chicago Public Schools, the Department of Defense and the Department of Housing and Urban Development to support Boy Scout troops.

 

The Chicago Public Schools and the Pentagon previously entered into settlements agreeing to stop their direct sponsorship of Boy Scout troops. Boy Scouts can still meet on military bases, and military personnel can still participate in Scout activities on their own time. The Pentagon settlement came after lawyers from the ACLU of Illinois argued that the Pentagons direct sponsorship of BSA troops meant that government personnel -- acting in their official capacity -- were requiring young people to affirm a belief in God in order to participate in a government-sponsored activity.

 

Charles Peters, Laura Friedel and David Scott of the Schiff Hardin law firm are co-counsel along with ACLU of Illinois attorney Adam Schwartz in representing Reverend Winkler and Rabbi Gerson.

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Ed writes:

Funding a BSA event is not establishing a religion!

 

I never said it established a religion. But government funding of a program that excludes people solely due to their religious views is in violation of the first amendment.

 

OGE writes:

And merlyn, come up with 35,000 atheisists in the prime demographics and the US military will spend bunches of bucks on a recruiting party for them as well.

 

OGE, are you saying the Jamboree isn't a real Scouting event, and is just a recruitment drive for the US military? Can atheists attend this recruitment drive? Or is the US military running a recruitment drive with religious requirements for attendance? Think that's constitutional?

 

EMB021 writes:

Claiming that we violate the 'establishment of religion' clause or that the BSA is a 'religiously exclusive private club' is nonsense. The BSA expects only that you can meet the concept of 'Duty to God' as YOU see it. It does not require that you believe in a particular religion.

 

It doesn't matter how much you try to water it down; excluding people for having the "wrong" religious views means the government can't finance it.

 

Keep in mind that "Duty to God" is a world-wide fundamental principle of Scouting. Without it, we aren't doing scouting.

 

Keep in mind that a number of countries explicitly allow their Scouts to join using a promise that excludes any mention of gods, and that Baden-Powell himself wrote an optional promise that he called the "outlander" promise, which omitted the parts about King and god.

[Kahuna]

It seems almost certain to be overturned on appeal, either by the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court. Those religious leaders (hmph!) are ACLU pigeons. Plenty of time to work it's way up there before the 2010 Jambo.

 

BTW, why doesn't the BSA buy a big chunk of land someplace and use it for Jamborees as Madkins suggests? Seems like a logical move to me.

[OldGreyEagle]

Merlyn, what I am saying is the Jamboree is a natural place for the military to seek out future members. It is true that atheists can't attend, but I did invite you to gather 35,000 youth and see if the military would help out putting on a 10 day event. If they refused, and then continued to sponsor the Jamboree, then that I would agree is wrong.

 

Talking about this subject does bring up a thought. President John Kennedy was Catholic, President Richard Nixon was "Quaker" and George W Bush is a methodist. Does the presidents attendance of a church constitute an establishment of a religion? Sen Joe Lieberman is jewish, does showing him walking into a synagogue mean anyhting?

 

If President gives a Commencement Address at Boston College (a Catholic University) does that constitute an endorsement of Catholicism? If Proctor and Gamble buy advertising time on the EWTN network are they turning their back on other faiths or people of no faith? Can the Marines recruit on EWTN or the 700 Club?

 

 

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

Kahuna writes:

It seems almost certain to be overturned on appeal, either by the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court.

 

On what grounds? You can't simply say "I like the BSA and want the government to finance Jambo" over and over, you know. You need to make actual legal arguments on why this decision should be overturned.

 

OGE writes:

Merlyn, what I am saying is the Jamboree is a natural place for the military to seek out future members. It is true that atheists can't attend, but I did invite you to gather 35,000 youth and see if the military would help out putting on a 10 day event.

 

And will the federal government pass a bill to help pay for this atheists-only event?

 

Judge Mannings' opinion said that the federal legislation allocating funding for the BSA Jamboree was unconstitutional because the BSA is a religious organization, and the sole intention of that legislation was to fund an event by that religious organization.

 

The military doesn't just recruit, the federal government allocates millions each year to finance the Jamboree.

 

If the BSA, as a private, discriminatory organization wants to put on its own Jamborees without government aid, they can certainly do that, and it would probably be legal for the military to send recruiters to such an event, just as they send recruiters to other similar events. But that doesn't mean the military can finance and help run the event itself.