Thomas Jefferson would be proud of us all

[NIscouter]

I just read today a column by Randy Cohen called "On Ethics". He noted Thomas Jefferson felt that airing our thoughts allowed us to discover thier flaws and our own fatulities. This forum gives us the opportunity to air our ideas and see if they are worthy and supportable. I enjoy the open debate and discourse of most of the posters, although some seem to be curmudgeons :>

[SemperParatus]

http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001129

 

On the derivation of 'curmudgeon'...

 

"Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary defines curmudgeon as 'a bad-tempered, difficult, cantankerous person'. It is usually applied to a man, especially an older man, but that doesn't seem to be inherent in the word. The earliest citations contain the sense of 'avaricious', but that has now been lost.

 

According to the OED, the first written evidence of curmudgeon is in Richard Stanyhurst's Description of Ireland, published in Holinshed's Chronicles in 1577: "Such a clownish Curmudgen." Stanyhurst was Irish, but we haven't found any suggestions that our word might have an Irish origin.

 

In 1600, Philemon Holland translated Livy's History of Rome and rendered the Latin word "frumentarius" ('corn dealer') with the word cornmudgin. That led, for a while, to the supposition that the etymology was corn plus either Old French muchier or mucier, 'to hide', or Middle English muchen or michen, 'to steal'. In other words, a curmudgeon was one who hoarded grain. This explanation appeared in various etymological dictionaries until the early part of the 20th century. At that point, someone realized that the first appearance of the word predated Holland's use of it in 1600 by about a quarter century, and that Holland was making a play on words.

 

If you look up curmudgeon in Samuel Johnson's 1755 Dictionary of the English Language, you will find the following in parentheses before the definition: "It is a vitious manner of pronouncing coeur mechant, Fr. an unknown correspondent." Coeur means 'heart', and mechant means 'bad'. Dr. Johnson had apparently lost track of who had given him this etymology, and the "Fr." stands for 'from'. However, a man named John Ash published a New and Complete Dictionary of the English Language in 1775 in which he took Dr. Johnson's "Fr." to mean 'French' and, knowing no French, provided the etymology "from Fr. coeur 'unknown', mechant 'correspondent'." An embarrassing lexicographical moment. Whoever Johnson's "unknown correspondent" was, there is no evidence to support 'bad heart' as a source for curmudgeon.

 

Without having any real evidence, we think it's likely that curmudgeon has some connection with cur, which came into English early in the 12th century and is related to Germanic verbs meaning 'to growl'. As for the second part of the word, the Century Dictionary, published in 1889, suggests as a possible source either of two Scottish words, mudgeon, 'grimace', or murgeon 'mock or grumble'."

 

 

 

(This message has been edited by SemperParatus)

[SR540Beaver]

HEY, cool it......school is out for the summer!!!

[NJCubScouter]

Interest etymological history there Semper, but I think the current generally accepted meaning of "curmudgeon" is something like "person who is perpetually grumpy." I do think that it usually implies one who is "older," not necessarily "old" but one who has been around for awhile, has "seen a lot," has decided he knows more than most other people especially "these kids today," has become jaded, somewhat cynical, somewhat, well, grumpy. In that light, it is difficult to argue with Nlscouter's use of the word. (And if you think I am implying that maybe there is at least a slight tinge of "curmudgeon-ness" in many of us, not including me of course, you may be right. Oh, I forgot, a curmudgeon may get a little sarcastic at times as well.)

[GopherJudy]

Semper,

 

When you were looking up the word curmudgeon, did you find a picture of my father next to the word? It describes him to a "T"! He's 73 but I think he's been like that all of his life! LOL!

 

Where did you find those references? They were very interesting! Thanks!

 

Judy

[Fuzzy Bear]

worthy and supportable? flaws and our own fatulities?

bah humbug,

what do you mean curmudgeons?

FB

[Bob58]

By Jove!

 

Before you know it we'll be swatting all gadflies and serving hemolock to those with whom we disagree.

 

Bob

[NIscouter]

I decided to use curmogeon as it was, in my mind at least, similar to contrarian (sp) and one I could use my spell checker to correct. Maybe I should have said that some people seem to argue for the arguements sake. Or maybe I streached it a bit.