Dictatorship or "Democracy"

[FScouter]

The power to fix the problems in your council lies with the volunteers. It is the volunteers that elect the Executive board. It is the Executive board that hires the SE. If the wrong people, paid or otherwise, are in these positions, it is the volunteers that put them there. To effect change, your focus should be on the chartered organizations in the council. The chartered org representatives, one from each CO, are the volunteers that hold the power of change. Tell us about your efforts to win support of the CO's.

 

You've been complaining about your council in this forum for over a year now. What is it you hope the members of these forums can do do help you?

[Fuzzy Bear]

I don't see it as either a Democracy or a Dictatorship. Council leaders believe that what they are doing is the best for those they lead. Sometimes they are doing what is best for themselves and sometimes they make dumb choices that benefits nobody involved. When somebody makes a choice you do not agree with it does not mean that it is personal, it may mean that it is business. Trying to figure out a choice usually means that one is to wonder unceasingly how they got left out when the decision appeared so easy. You can always use the, 'who benefits theory' to uncover the reasons but even that usually only tweaks out one good or bad reason. Sometimes people are arbitrary or superstitious or religious with their reasoning. Sometimes they vote with their friendship, feelings, their pride or their greed, who really knows?

 

The Scout Camp that I first attended as a youth had a certain mystic about it for me, and now as I look back, so was it for others. The city grew up around it and now the camp appears to be more of a park than a Summer Camp. The city was not to blame for the encroachment nor was the Council leadership to blame for not selling it to the highest bidder to use a shopping mall. Something was lost in all of the change and the times. People held on to their past, their traditions, love and yet, it is still gone. Only a vestige remains with all of the best of intentions and choices.

 

Looking back on one column written here, it was about a particular Scout Camp that somehow died an unremarkable death. There was a strong following of Scouts and Scouters that attended it on a yearly basis. Most were Staff members at one time. There were wonderful traditions and spectacular ceremonies. There were staff members that were held in high esteem and ran the camp to perfection. Odes and website offerings were written when those individuals passed into that GSCITS. The camp has since been abandoned and sold off piecemeal. One young man hiked the paths and took pictures and tried to write about some of the stories but even that was of little comfort. As I read each entry, I could feel the pain of separation and of loss. My conclusion about the choice made to close it? I don't want to know. I don't want to know what took its' place or even if it is better. Dwelling in the past causes unnecessary sorrow. I believe in actively working to build memories worth remembering for those in the present and that is a large enough task. Those that vote have their own work as Scouters and I hope they will do their best. I will

 

FB

 

[Kudu]

>> There does not need to be a specific cause, it's a PRIVATE

>> organization.

 

> I can't even fathom how a Scouter could think this way. It's flat out

> un-American.

 

Well, duh!

 

I've seen a few references to Stalin in this discussion. If you want to invoke Stalin, then the correct analogy is: reforming the BSA is like trying to get Stalin to be Washington. If you don't want Stalin to act like Stalin, then work to build an alternative to Stalin. You are not going to reform Stalin.

 

The BSA is the way it is because it is a "PRIVATE" religious corporation with a government-established monopoly on Scouting. Why should anyone be surprised that when the government establishes a religious organization with a monopoly, they become un-American?

 

The BSA is not un-American because it is not "democratic," it just happens to be run by a majority of religious conservatives. The BSA is un-American because its monopoly prevents freedom in the marketplace. Without the freedom of a market economy, "democracy" is meaningless.

 

Baden-Powell's last message to Scouters included the suggestion to keep Scouting a volunteer movement. I live a mile from the Canadian border, and when I call the local Scouts Canada "office" to use a SC Scout Camp, I get an answering machine in some volunteer's house, and he calls back in the evening after he gets out of work. My guess is that the people who are most outraged that professionals juggle the books to get the money they need to pay their salaries (and in the process get rid of volunteers who stand in their way), would be the first to object to the lack of "customer service" in a volunteer alternative :-/

 

What no leftist, liberal, or moderate Republican reformer wants to do, is surrender the convenience a nice local air-conditioned office run by a guy making $200,000. Neo-conservatives, on the other hand, understand that the monopoly is everything. Without it, saying that the BSA is PRIVATE organization would have about the same sting as Ronald McDonald saying that his organization is PRIVATE and nobody can force him to flame-broil his burgers.

 

When Americans begin to look at Scouting as a movement rather than as the commercial product of a conservative religious corporation, some people will realize that (at the very least) the problem with "Scouting" is the lack of Congressional Charters for alternatives to the BSA and the Girl Scouts. Only then will we see people build alternatives for the very small number of people who would prefer to see millions of local dollars go to their Scouts rather than professionals.

 

The BSA will always be the Wal-Mart of Scouting because, after everything is said and done, most Americans value convenience over freedom.

[Bob White]

And yet you are a program leader and an instructor in a program you neither understand or respect. Go figure.

[Kudu]

Flame-bait much?

[Bob White]

No its just that ultimately the quality of the program is dependent on the deliver at the unit level by unit volumyeers. IOf you really believe the quality of the program is that bad it is your own fault.

 

 

[evmori]

No its just that ultimately the quality of the program is dependent on the deliver at the unit level by unit volumyeers. IOf you really believe the quality of the program is that bad it is your own fault.

 

Huh? This makes no sense! What did he post?

 

Sure the BSA has rights. So do I. I don't violate there's & they don't violate mine. Great country America!

 

FScouter,

Thanks but I would quit 1st since your goals seem to be a little suspect. Getting rid of people who don't agree 100% with you is a little suspect that all you want is "yes men". Hitler operated like that!

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Kudu]

Apples and Oranges.

 

The quality of my unit's program is what we make it to be. Most Scouting happens on the unit level.

 

Which is the point, really. The question people have to ask is, does your unit need a local Council summer camp enough to put up with someone in an air conditioned office telling you that you can't go to Lasertron?

 

Most people trade convenience for freedom. It is human nature.

 

If I was concerned with my local Council's performance and wanted the power to influence it, I would move from Scoutmaster to organization representative. The position is open in my SO right now, but I just like to go camping.

 

As far as the BSA national program goes, it was much better when it was run by Hillcourt, but program elements like the Uniform and Patrol Leader Training will not improve until the BSA faces competition in the marketplace.

 

As far as changing the world goes, I would rather help build alternatives than to change a monopoly.

 

We will see what happens.

 

 

[Bob White]

No one ever said membership should be revoked if you do not agree 100%. What was said id if your behavior interferes with the delivery of the program that the your membership can be revoked. There are other conditions as well such as policies violations etc. But what is the point of being a member of an organization just to ridicule it. I'm glad the BSa has the freedom to remove any leader they widh . I am glad they use it sparingly. But I wish they used it a little more often.

 

My preceeding post was to read..."No, it's just that ultimately the quality of the program is dependent on the deliver at the unit level by unit volunteers. If you really believe the quality of the program is that bad it is your own fault."

 

And was in response to kudu's 2 previous posts.

 

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[Kudu]

> But what is the point of being a member of an organization just to

> ridicule it.

 

I don't think anyone joins the BSA just to ridicule it, but he who doth not take delight in the hypocrisy of religious fundamentalists, hath smelt too much wood-smoke at twilight:-/

[Bob White]

But if the quality of your unit program is what you make of it (as you say Kudu), then isn't the quality of every unit dependent on what it's leaders make of it? Or is your unit unique from all others in this way?

 

 

[evmori]

Yep the quality of the program in each unit is what each unit makes it.

 

And being able to disagree with something the BSA(or any organization or person) does is what make this a great country. That is one of our rights.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

As you say ed it is "one" of our rights. There are many others, not all of which are there to protect 'you'. Some rights are there to protect others from you. Is it your suggestion we abolish the rights of others? Do we simply abandon the freedom of association? Or does the BSA not get to use it because you are a member and you think your rights over-rule all others?

 

What do we do with the rights of private organizations Ed?

[Kudu]

> But if the quality of your unit program is what you make of it (as you

> say Kudu), then isn't the quality of every unit dependent on what it's

> leaders make of it? Or is your unit unique from all others in this way?

 

I don't understand what the quality of my unit program has to do with the topic of "Dictatorship or Democracy."

 

[fgoodwin]

jkhny, you claim the booted one was booted by BSA because he was a whistleblower. You should be careful asserting your opinion as fact.

 

My understanding is that the Council claims it booted him because of an alleged inappropriate relationship with a female Scouter (which relationship the booted one of course denies).

 

Whether or not either allegation is true I don't know -- but the point is, until all the facts are out, one should not assert any particular unproven allegation as fact. (This message has been edited by a staff member.) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)