Dictatorship or "Democracy"

[jkhny]

The following was passed along to me. The following parallels behavior in our Council - should this occur in Scouting? What happens when volunteers are completely disenfranchised by the leadership that is supposed to represent them?

 

In this Council, volunteers critical of leadership have been "suspended" by Council leadership - a move that I can find no reference to in ANY BSA rules and procedures.

 

Edited to remove names and locale as I am a third party to those actions. My intent is to point out that this occurs too often. Valued and regularly used property is sold off over the protests of volunteers, and leadership ignores volunteers. Nominating committees are manipulated - in this case repeatedly - to obtain the results leadership wants.

 

And locally, OUR SE has gotten "legal" approval for an "Executive Committee" to take action in place of the full Executive BOARD - further limiting outside involvement and oversight....I wonder if it has anything to do with increasing dissent - even on the Board....

 

Enrollment numbers show less than 8,000 instead of the more than 10,000 claimed (with less than 6,000 Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts). Day camp enrollments have plumeted - no one is happy about running camp on public property with limited control (paid staff are running programs because volunteers will not take on the responsibility). FOS numbers are down with leadership refusing to contribute in 3 of 5 Districts. WHY, when leadership is clearly and obviously FAILING is it impossible to get rid of the leadership - those that are making a mess of things?

 

This type of behavior is killing Scouting.

 

 

[Bob White]

If this was not in your council, and you heard it third party, (in other words somebody who heard about it-told somebody else-who told you) then how do you know for sure that you have any real facts at all?

 

You're concerned it shouldn't happen AGAIN, heck you can't really be sure it happened this time.

 

Can volunteers who gripe to much be removed by the BSA, absolutely, and thank goodness to in most cases. As you have seen on this forum there are a lot of folks who know very little about scouting at any level either by inexperience or by choice. If you get somebody with a lot of opinion and very little knowledge getting in the way of delivering the program then they need to be removed.

 

It is no different then what the units are directed to do with boys who continually interfere with a unit program being delivered or who create a safety hazard to themselves or others. Either they agree to change or the unit can remove them from the roster.

 

bekieve me as often as you felt that you wanted to just get rid of a professional scouter, there have been volunteers who have given them ample reason to feel the same way toward us.

 

Removing volunteers does not not happen anywhere near as often as you might think, and not nearly as often as it could.

 

(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

If that's true it is very sad.

 

So if I voice my opinion and it is contrary to the BSA, I can be removed as a leader? For what? Voicing my opinion?

 

This is the USA not the USSR and I am allowed to say anything I want about anyone or anything without reprisal. Freedom of speech. I think it's in the Bill of Rights somewhere. And the BSA's right of freedom of association does not take precedent over my right of free speech.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[jkhny]

Assume it IS all true - because it is. ANd it HAS happened AGAIN - here. And AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN. Be glad if it's not happening where you are but be aware that it IS happening elsewhere.

 

The account was written by one of the principals involved who confirmed its accuracy. A number of volunteers in that Council have been "suspended" - something new to me. Usually B.S.A. simply throws people out.

 

I have talked to at least a half dozen people removed by B.S.A. or personally familiar with volunteers removed for VALIDLY questioning bad behavior by Scout Executives or Council Leadership. local newspaper articles available on the web or other third party information supports all these accounts.

 

These are people with DECADES of service in Scouting dedicated to its values, NOT novice know-nothings. These people are far more dedicated to the values of Scouting than the paid staffers who threw them out.

 

This now seems to be a regular practice on the part of autocratic SE's. It has happened here in my Council. It happened in upstate NY where a 17 year Scoutmaster was removed. A Troop could not get its charter removed there becuse its adult leadership had taken a strong stance against the behavior of the SE there. The SE killed an active Troop while keeping ghost units on the rosters. The SE in one GA Council removed those that complained about a DE buying beer for camp counselors - instead of the DE. Only when the DE was arrested for DUI and others confronted the SE were those removed reinstated. This same SE was bumped UP and out of Council after an IRS investigation into problems in the Council. the booted one in Alabama was remnoved the very day his charges of overstatement were proved true. Holmes, the SE, is scrambling to deflect blame after being caught for the SECOND time in enrollment fraud. Holmes makes over $200,000 a year and works in new $2 million offices. Who had more to lose - Holmes or the volunteer that brought in the FBI when BSA did nothing?

 

Someone noed that the abuse in Idaho was overstating things - I don't think so. The good guys are now gone and the ones who covered up got promoted.

 

ALL of these cases SLANDER those that ARE doing the right thing in Scouting. ALL of these cases HURT Scouting. ANY Scouter should be appalled that this occurs in ANY way shape or form.

 

C'mon. Pull your head out of the sand. If I can find out all this and talk to the principals involved, a reporteer can do so too. This is NOT appropriate behavior for B.S.A. When caught doing something bad, the reaction is to bury it and silence the whistle-blower. Is that the appropriate response to wrongdoing?

 

If B.S.A. was serious about correcting these abuses there would be the equivalent of an "Inspector General" office where volunteers could raise concerns and real investigations would occur followed by REAL repurcussions. Instead National hides and says anything is a "local" problem. Well too many of these "local" problems arise from incompetenet paid staff who should have been removed from the professional ranks years ago.

 

The blindly loyal enable Dictatorships, defending anything done in the name of ideology. Don't justify misdeeds by saying say it can happen anywhere. The question is why is it happening within BSA and why is it happening so regularly? Why isn't BSA isn't working to solve the problem?

 

This is Stalinist behavior - autocracy at its worst. What is it doing in Scouting? But then if you look at those involved you see grossly overpaid - and questionably competent - people unlikely to find similar power and perks elsewhere. They fake numbers because they cannot build enrollments legitimately. They sell off facilities because they have alienated contributors and can't make financial goals. Of course they will do anything they can do to hold onto what they have. And they don't want anyone pointing out their failures. This is corporate sleaze at its worst. About those "timeless values?"

 

Evil thrives when good men are silent.

 

What happens if I am right? What happens if I am UNDERSTATING the problem? What happens when all of these issues erupt into the public light? Will BSA survive a far too typical corporate scandal? Too many "typical" corporations have not. How bad is it going to be when the whole focus of your organization is "character?" Don't you think that there aren't enough people out there that would LOVE for BSA to implode in a very messy hypocritical hari-kari?

 

BSA needs to start reforming from within and making sure that there can't be even a HINT of problems. It needs to sweep house instead of burying bodies. It's going to be a hot summer and the bodies are starting to smell.

 

ANY REAL Scout should be concerned about these issues. EVERY SCOUT should be screaming to National whenever another scandal hits the news. Every single one of these headlines hurts Scouting. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

[Bob White]

I have hung around scouting quite a while and have never seen a good person get their membership removed. I have seen 5 people removed I have been in the program even longer than Juris .

 

Each was appropriate. Again you must remember this is a private organization which can choose its members at will. We are "volunteer leaders" in the BSA we are not the owners of the corporation or the program, those roles are held by the BSA and its leagal representatives, and by the IH and CR of the Charter Organizations.

 

Do not think because you have a title that ends in "master" that you are in charge. That is not how the movement is organized. If an individualks behavior becomes a distraction to the programs purpose then it is logical that thy either change their behavi0oour or be removed so that the service to the youth can proceed unimpeded.

 

Tenure is no excuse for bad attitude or disruptive behaviour. An old whiner is just as disruptive as a young whiner.

 

This kind of thread is the scouting version of gossipping over the backyard fence. It is great for getting some disgruntled scouters too share their war whoops, but does nothing to serve the youth in scouting.

 

[purcelce]

All I can say is:

 

AMEN Brother Bob!

[Kahuna]

I would be interested in knowing exactly what provision of the BSA Charter or the Rules and Regulations authorizes removal from the program for disruptive behavior. "Whiners" I am pretty sure isn't in there. And are we talking removal by the SE or by Executive Board or by the National Council or the National Executive Staff? I suppose that disruptive behavior such as throwing eggs at the SE would do it under almost any set of rules, but speech? I just don't find any justifiable reason for removal no matter what is said.

[jkhny]

Bob - do you read the news?

 

Tom Willis got thrown out the very day his charges about enrollment fraud were proven correct. He went to outside authorities with his concerns about enrollment fraud only after BSA paid professionals ignored him. He was even threatened with revoval from Scouting if he pressed the issue. Somehow the skeletons in his closet were not sufficient cause to have him thrown put any earlier - he was in charge of training new leaders (which led him to ask why som many units had NO leaders trained). It turned out that they didn't exist. But Holmes - the SE who removed Willis - was also involved in the Circle Ten Scandal in 2000. He's been caught for the second time. Holmes makes over $200,000 a year and is scrambling to hold onto a position he'd be hard pressed to match anywhere else. He is an embarassment to the values of Scouting.

 

Richard Knaul - a 17 year Scoutmaster in Auburn NY - was removed after siging a letter submitted to a local paper (along with 23 others) questioning whether spending $500,000 on unneeded new Council offices (instead of programs for boys) was an "ethical" decision. His unit and its Chartering Organization opposed his removal. Of note the SE continued to raise funds AFTER reaching his goal - and was called on it by a group that had provided the matching funds.

 

There are alot more - and these are NOT "whiney" disgruntled "troublemakers" - they are dedicated and concerned Scouters TRYING to hold paid professionals to the same standards of "character" BSA supposedly demands of its volunteers.

 

ANY organiztion that touts values so regularly should find such abuses by professional staff INTOLERABLE. Those who blindly follow without challenging abuses are just as guilty themselves.

 

You cannot porvide a good program for youth when most of the youth enrolled are non-existant. You cannot provide a gfood program for youth when you've sold off all the facilities in your Council. You cannot run a good program for youth when you have so alienated your volunteer base that they refuse to support your Council with time or money.

 

BSA is NOT perfect and does reflect society - far more often than some would like to admit.

 

[Bob White]

You will not find a list, what you will find is that we are voluntary members of a private organization and can be removed by whomever owns the charter to which your membership is attached.

 

As a unit volunteer you can be removed by the CO or the SE as nationals representative. As a district/council volunteer you can be removed by the SE as the council and national representative.

 

There does not need to be a specific cause, it's a PRIVATE organization. If you continue to try and apply inappropriate laws to a private organization you will continue to frustrate yourself.

 

Think of the BSA as a private residence, your house. Who must you let in, once in, who do you have to let stay?

 

If you invited someone into your home and after awhile they began to complain and insult your family, would you have to allow them to stay or can you tell them to leave?

 

The BSA is no different.

 

 

[evmori]

There does not need to be a specific cause, it's a PRIVATE organization.

 

So because I am a member of the BSA I give up my 1st Amendment right of free speech? I doubt it! Now if I commit a crime, that could be a reason to revoke my membership. But if I publicly state "The BSA sucks" (which I don't believe, just an example) then I can be removed as a volunteer? Isn't this one of the reasons we seceded from England?

 

I can't even fathom how a Scouter could think this way. It's flat out un-American.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

Ed how can this surprise you? We have been over this before. Your first amendment rights to not guarantee you membership in a private organization, nor in someone elses home. If you visit my home and I don't like your behavior or your opinion I can throw you out. The BSA as a private organization is no different. You can say whatever you like, but the BSA does not have to let you say it as a registered scouter.

 

Since you are an experienced unit leaer, Wood Badge trained Scouter, Unit Commissioner, and scout leader trainer I am surprised every time you say you don't know about this.

 

 

jkhny

 

You have a sliver of a each story. You know about one evennt and an eventual outcome and nothing in-between. Besides, each council is its own locally operated corporation. If the local scouting administration chooses to do this, and it violates no national policies, then they are free to do as they like. Your concern should be the delivery of scouting to the youth in your community. Consider leaving the backyard gossip to others.(This message has been edited by Bob White)

[evmori]

Bob,

Continue to be surprised! As an American, I have the right of free speech. Being a member of the BSA doesn't take away that right. Yes we have been over this before and before I (and others) have asked you to show chapter & verse in any BSA policy or regulation that states I (or anyone other member) can be removed for voicing an opinion that is contradictory to the BSA's and you have yet to show one. Why? Because it doesn't exist except in your mind.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Bob White]

As most here know I often provide manual and page references for most of the things I share. However my library is limited to that of a unit leader and trainer. There is nothing in the Council by laws necesarry for being a good volunteer. As you would know in you various roles in scouting there is one copy of that manual in each council kept at each Council service center.

 

I invite you to contact your local scout executive if you doubt me or you can take jkhny's word and see by the stories he has shared that there are scouters who have been removed for just such a reason. You might ask jkhny if he has any reports of any courts reinstating these volunteers.

 

Now to the original question. Is the BSA a democracy or a dictatorship. Well you might as well ask if it is a fishing boat or a Honda motor cylce. Since BSA is not a government it can not be labeled using governemntal styles. It's a non- profit Corporation and like others it is operated by a system of inter-dependent committees under the guidance of an elected executive board and a professional staff they select and hire.

[Backpacker]

"Since the BSA is not a government it can not be labeled using government styles."

 

But Bob you did just that in the thread comparing a troop to the US government. You again contradict yourself when you do not have a rule or regulation to quote. You can't keep having it both ways BW because your credibility has now become questionable in your replies which continue to show an inability to understand the issue.

 

As far as removing a volunteer your SE can give you reasons and procedures established by the BSA and given to all professional scouters during training at National, I still have my copy. It is nothing as simple and dictatorial as BW suggests.

[FScouter]

Ed, you ought to know by now that when you get in an argument with Bob, you always end up with the short end of the stick. You might refer to publication #34512 (available at your Scout Shop) which spells out for you in black and white, "chapter and verse" how you too may join Jkhnys club and be removed. Examples of volunteers that may be removed, quoting:

- "a poor team player who is not in keeping with the organizations image. This person prevents others from being effective and may also drive them out of Scouting. This volunteer may hate his or her Scouting responsibility and lets others know it."

- "person who can't get along with others any may even greatly offend some"

- "doesn't perform assigned tasks and can't seem to meet the objectives of his or her Scouting responsibilities."

 

Another quote:

"Always keep two things in mind: (1) Do what's best for youth, and (2) The BSA has a right to choose its leaders."

 

Do you want to be a test case?