The Ten Commandments Can Stay On Public Lands!

[johndaigler]

If I watered down posts, I apologize. Obviously, that was not my intent - and I don't think that was the result.

 

I was being careful not to touch ideas and thoughtful comments. IMHO, what I removed were comments aimed at others that did nothing to intellectually challenge their words.

 

When we engage each other with challenging thoughts and opinions it creates dialogue - even argument, that's great. All I cut were comments that challenged people, not ideas.

 

This moderating thing is a learning experience for me and I purposely took a long serious look at this whole thread before I edited anything. I think the posts I edited, could easily have treated others better without losing any discussion value or strength of point. All I did was help them focus on others' words rather than others' assumed ideologies.

 

Reread this thread, if anyone finds an idea missing, I'll readily apologize.

 

John(This message has been edited by johndaigler)

[packsaddle]

Ahem. ...ideas missing...

Really!

[Rooster7]

I appreciate the efforts and concerns of the staff members. Obviously they are seeking to make our debate more "friendly". So be it. Still, I can't help but laugh. If this was the sixties, there would be black magic marker all over this thread.

[packsaddle]

Be careful how you wield that black magic.

[evmori]

Well just if black magic was used. A post might like this!

[Trevorum]

I agree that the redacted parts seemed to be personal asides and did nothing to move the discussion forward. In addition, I greatly appreciciate the professional manner in which the edits were done, using brackets and elipses to clearly indicate what was snipped. I've been edited before, and while perhaps appropriate, it was not clear to the later reader what were MY words and what may have been changed by a staff member.

 

Personally, I really get tired of the petty sniping on these forums sometimes and think that both [cut] and [cut] should ... and then [edited]....

 

Now, if we can only get someone to clean up our spelling and syntax!

 

 

[packsaddle]

Trevorum, I've got your number, you trouble-maker, you. A little advice, give up on the grammar thing. I find it difficult enough to police my own (and I many times fail), the others would be way too much.

I'm outa here.

[Hunt]

"Hunt, if I read your interpretation correctly, a situation where a religious group attempts to place a monument will almost by definition fail the test after this decision. Did I get that right?"

 

I think that's basically right. They'll only be able to do it by hiding it among other monuments and essentially lying about their purpose. Hopefully, we won't see too much of that. I do think there will be some very disappointed people when they learn that the Texas case doesn't really mean that "10 Commandments monuments are OK."

 

If the bikers want to put up the giant menorah to promote Judaism, it'll fail the test too.

 

I think johndaigler really gets to the crux of this--the Supreme Court is only going to allow very weak actions supporting religion--so weak that I, for one, can't see why it's worthwhile to keep fighting this battle.

[SR540Beaver]

JD,

 

Thank you for the job you are doing. I frequent a political forum that can get extremely ugly by comparison to anything seen here. While people ought to be able to argue an issue on its merits instead of taking swipes at each other, they often can't resist the urge. It really doesn't have a place on a scouting forum. Again, thank you for helping keep the message intact while editing out the personal stuff.

 

In addition to frequenting a political forum, I listen to a fair amount of talk radio. Obviously, I listen to conservative talk since liberal talk is non-existent. It seems you can only get one flavor. This SCOTUS decision has been one of the topics of discussion the past day or so. I heard Judge Roy Moore on Hannity's radio show. This came to my mind. I've seen Roy Moore numerous times on all of the "news" programs and radio shows. There is no doubt where he stands as far as his faith is concerned. It is rather obvious that his intent and purpose was to introduce religion into his court. I kind of look at it this way. People can order custom checks with their favorite sports team, a NASCAR driver, horses, dogs, crosses, scriptures, etc. They do that as a testimony to something they consider important to them. When a judge commissions a huge slab of marble carved into the 10 commandments and puts it front and center at the entrance to the court, he is making a testimony to his beliefs and how his court is run. As a Christian, I can relate and understand his desire to do so. But as an American, I want my nation to be a nation of laws and for justice to be blind. I want everyone to feel the same way. I want everyone treated the same way. That a judge holds the 10 C's near and dear to his heart is fine by me. That he tries to make it officially recognized in a government function is not.

 

 

[Trevorum]

Beav, I agree. I, too, used to participate in a political forum, but the constant mud was discouraging and the polarization was depressing. That's one of the reasons I very much appreciate Scouter Terry providing us with this Issues & Politics forum, where topics of marginal reference to Scouting may be discussed in a civil manner. We are a diverse bunch (ain't it great!) here and topics can generally be examined from several perspectives without labels being tossed about. I truly enjoy reading the posts of those with whom I disagree here because I learn from them and because we are all trying to abide by the Scout Law (well, except for a very few non-Scouters). Sometimes we slip up (once, I called someone a name and have regretted it ever since), but that is what our friends the moderators are for: to clean up our unsightly drips of spittle. (yuch. go ahead and edit that last part if you want to...)

[NJCubScouter]

Great post SR540, I agree completely.

 

By the way, since you mention Judge Moore, although I don't think that case ever got to the U.S. Supreme Court (at least not on the merits), I do think it is pretty clear that his Ten C. display would have been placed in the "Kentucky" category (unconstitutional) rather than the "Texas" category (constitutional.) A large free-standing display unaccompanied by other monuments of equal prominence would be seen as a "promotion" of religion, probably even more clearly than the displays in the courthouses in Kentucky. (And that doesn't even take into account the statements of Judge Moore at the time, which suggested that promoting religion was exactly the point of the monument.)

[SR540Beaver]

NJ,

 

You are correct that the Roy Moore case has not been before the SCOTUS. But Hannity did call him in to discuss how the rulings came down since they are of the same "ilk" and he knew he could get the answers he wanted.

 

The main argument I keep hearing on talk radio and the opinion shows is that our founding fathers set up our legal system based on the ten commandments. But lets actually look at the commandments.

 

1 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 

2 4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

3 7Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

 

4 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

5 12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

 

6 13Thou shalt not kill.

 

7 14Thou shalt not commit adultery.

 

8 15Thou shalt not steal.

 

9 16Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

 

10 17Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

 

The first four commandments govern the relationship between God and humans. The next four commandments govern public relationships between people. The last two commandments govern private thoughts.

 

Only the commandments concerning killing, adultry and stealing deal with actual criminal laws. That is 3 out of 10. It is kind of a stretch to say that our legal system is based on the 10 commandments and therefore justifies placing them in government buildings as a reminder of where our laws came from.

 

Again, I'm a born again, evangelical Christian and it doesn't bother me one iota to see the 10 commandments posted anywhere. I try to live my life by these as well as the rest of scripture. But not everyone else believes what I beleive and I honestly don't think our founding fathers intent was to build a "Christian" nation. Their intent was to build a nation of freedom for everyone based on the rule of law without pressuring influences from things outside of the law.

 

[Rooster7]

The Ten Commandments has historical significance to this country and its government. It is the most renowned set of laws ever given. In particular, the Ten Commandments are significantly important tenants of the Jewish and Christian faiths. Until the revisionist of the sixties and seventies came along, most in this country agreed that the American legal system was based on Judeo-Christian values. In fact, Id be willing to bet that most folks still believe that to be true. It should not surprise anyone that the SCOTUS accepts these monuments (recognizing the Ten Commandments) as having historical significance to these United States. What is surprising is that they cant seem to accept it as being universally true, only under the right conditions.

[SemperParatus]

 

"Whereas, the people of these United States, from their earliest history to the present time, have been led by the hand of a kind Providence and are indebted for the countless blessings of the past and present, and dependent for continued prosperity in the future upon Almighty God; and whereas the great vital and conservative element in our system is the belief of our people in the pure doctrines and divine truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ, it eminently becomes the representatives of a people so highly favored to acknowledge in the most public manner their reverence for God: therefore, Resolved, That the daily sessions of this body be opened with prayer and that the ministers of the Gospel in this city are hereby requested to attend and alternately perform this solemn duty." ~ Reports of Committees of the House of Representatives

 

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"No nation has ever existed or been governed without religion. Nor can be. The Christian religion is the best religion that has been given to man and I, as Chief Magistrate of this nation, am bound to give it the sanction of my example." ~ Thomas Jefferson

 

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"I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way." ~ James Madison

 

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"We can only depend on the all powerful influence of the Spirit of God, whose Divine aid and assistance it becomes us as a Christian people most devoutly to implore. Therefore I move that some minister of the Gospel be requested to attend this Congress every morning during the sessions in order to open the meeting with prayer." ~ Elias Boudinot, President of Congress, A Framer of the Bill of Rights in the First Congress

 

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"We have been assured, Sir, in the Sacred Writings that except the Lord build the house, they labor in vain that build it. I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without His concurring aid, we shall succeed in this political building no better than the builders of Babel. . . . I therefore beg leave to move that henceforth, prayers imploring the assistance of Heaven and its blessings on our deliberations be held in this assembly every morning before we proceed to business, and that one or more clergy of the city be requested to officiate in that service." ~ Benjamin Franklin

 

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"Sensible of the importance of Christian piety and virtue to the order and happiness of a state, I cannot but earnestly commend to you every measure for their support and encouragement. . . . the very existence of the republics . . . depend much upon the public institutions of religion." ~ John Hancock

 

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"It is the duty of all wise, free, and virtuous governments to countenance and encourage virtue and religion. I therefore recommend a general and public return of praise and thanksgiving to Him from whose goodness these blessings descend. The most effectual means of securing the continuance of our civil and religious liberties is always to remember with reverence and gratitude the source from which they flow." ~ John Jay, Original Chief-Justice U. S. Supreme Court, An Author of the Federalist Papers, Governor of New York

 

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"I had the honor of being one among many who framed that Constitution. . . . In order effectually to accomplish these great ends, it is incumbent upon us to begin wisely and to proceed in the fear of God; . . . and it is especially the duty of those who bear rule to promote and encourage piety [respect for God]." ~ Henry Laurens, President of Congress, Selected as Delegate to the Constitutional Convention

 

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"A free government. . . . can only be happy when the public principle and opinions are properly directed. . . . by religion and education. It should therefore be among the first objects of those who wish well to the national prosperity to encourage and support the principles of religion and morality." ~ Abraham Baldwin, Signer of the Constitution, A Framer of the Bill of Rights in the First Congress

 

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"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness." ~ George Washington

 

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"Whatsoever State among us shall continue to make piety [respect for God] and virtue the standard of public honor will enjoy the greatest inward peace, the greatest national happiness, and in every outward conflict will discover the greatest constitutional strength." ~ John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence

 

 

[Trevorum]

Rooster, you know my thoughts on this matter, so let me look carefully at what you have said. I'll put your statements in italics.

 

1. "The Ten Commandments has historical significance to this country and its government." True for our country; I'm not so sure about our government.

 

2. "It is the most renowned set of laws ever given." True, at least in the western world. In terms of sheer recognition factor, Hammurabi's code, the Magna Carta, and others don't come close.

 

3. "In particular, the Ten Commandments are significantly important tenants of the Jewish and Christian faiths." Obviously true. Also, Islam.

 

4. "Until the revisionist of the sixties and seventies came along, most in this country agreed that the American legal system was based on Judeo-Christian values." I'd quibble with your choice of words for "revisionists", but still true enough.

 

5. "In fact, Id be willing to bet that most folks still believe that to be true." Probably true. They'd be wrong, as Beaver has pointed out, but they probably believe it nonetheless.

 

6. "It should not surprise anyone that the SCOTUS accepts these monuments (recognizing the Ten Commandments) as having historical significance to these United States." Given all the above, true.

 

7. "What is surprising is that they cant seem to accept it as being universally true, only under the right conditions." Aha, here is where we differ. Accepting the 10 commandments as "universally true" presupposes that one believes in that particular religion. For example, Buddhists do not accept the 10C as "universally true", especially commandments 1-4. If the SCOTUS were to accept the 10C as "universally true", they would be establishing one particular kind of religion over another, which is unconstitutional.

 

But see, we're not so far apart! 6 out of 7 isn't too bad!