Of interest to ALL - on recent events.

[jkhny]

The following from:

 

http://www.boyscoutsfortruth.com/

 

This site apparently set up by volunteers in Atlanta'

A good summary of what those of us in "not-so-well-run" Councils see and feel. It is an intelligent and thoughtful take on what is a very REAL problem (even if you are lucky enough NOT to have them in your Council). What happens to BSA nationally affects ALL of us in Scouting.

 

 

[BadenP]

jkhny

 

If everything in the BSA is as dreary as portrayed here then scouting will die out. However, I think this article is EXTREMELY exagerrated to say the least. Scouting could not have survived almost 100 years if it was run by corrupt individuals. Most of the professionals in scouting are competent and honest people, I used to be one, and the volunteers make sure the pro's stay that way. In my two districts the last thing I ever wanted were "yes men" as my district committee members. Scouting is a very time consuming program to run on a district and council level and you need many people you can trust to assist with delivering of all the varied aspects of the program in an effective and efficent manner.

 

There has been corruption in our own government all through history yet we do not close down Washington DC as a result, do we. Scouting deserves the same chance, let them clean house of their bad apples and put safeguards in place to prevent future occurances. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater just yet.

[jkhny]

Dis you look at the web site referenced. THings in Atlanta ARE pretty bad

 

The concerns expressed in the above post are the same as yours. Dedicated Scouters do not want to see "Scouting" killed but there are serious problems at the National level with those that should be the ones cleaning house.

THe bad behavior of paid staff in all these recent instances sullies the image of all those doing a great job and blackens the name of Scouting.

 

 

But when corruption is at the top, what do you do?

 

What happened in the cases hitting headlines (and many more not yet there) when volunteers confronted problems at the local level and questioned what was happening.

 

They were ignored or even threatened by local leadership. They received NO help from National. Our District Chair was told "It's a local problem." But when - as the letter above noted - SE's control who is appointed to the Board that is supposed to oversee their actions, volunteers have no recourse. Just TRY to oust a SE using COR's. Has it EVER been done?

 

Despite being caught for the second time in an enrollment fraud scandal, Holmes in ALabama is trying to say "the ACLU ate my units" and threw out the volunteer that brought in the FBI. He got THIS post (at over $200,000 a year) after CIrcle Ten in Dallas. National hasn't done anything to hold him accountable - and National had to be complicit in the removal of the whistle-blower given the press THAT was poing to generate.

 

What kind of message is being sent by BSA?

 

Speak out and you're out!!

 

Is this Stalinist Scouting or Boy Scouts of AMERICA.

 

When corruption is at the top what do you do? Reform does not come from within. Those in power do anything and everything they can to retain that power.

 

This is America yes, but don't forget history. Does anyone believe that Richard Nixon would have held on to the end if Woodward and Bernstein had not dug and dug deep? Where would they have gotten without their inside source? Remember what happened in the closing months of Watergate? A scramble to intimidate, hide, cover-up and lie about everything "for the greater good" of "Protecting" the Presidency and the US. God save us from such "protection."

 

BSA counts on everyone not wanting to discuss problems, punishing and intimidating those that do and pulling strings to keep bad news as quiet as possible. Does anyone believe that Atlanta would have hired OUTSIDE auditors if Rainbow Coalition/PUSH wasn't on thier necks - and even THAT "audit" is questionable. C'mon claims for 10-15,000 down to 5,000 with less than 3,500 "active" (there's a 30% overstatement right there - is THAT level so common it's STANDARD and not cause for concern?) That means you're lucky to have just over 2 million boys in Scouting - some difference from the 5 million "served" claimed by National.

 

BSA has been having the same scandals for DECADES. If there was a will to solve this problem it WOULD be solved.

 

WHY won't BSA allow a nation-wide audit of membership rolls?

 

Why aren't paid staff caught lying fired?

 

WHy aren't paid staff caught in financial scandals fired?

 

 

I expect that all this will continue to boil and build up pressure. It's happening in too many places - at too deep and indefensible a level.

 

The longer this continues, the more damage that gets done and the harder it will be for the organization to recover.

 

Quoting another:

 

 

[madkins007]

I'd be willing to bet that the website does not exagerate an iota, and that the problem is nearly nation-wide, at least among a certain size of councils (larger may be able to generate REAL numbers, and smaller might not have the pressures).

 

When I worked in a local council office, I sure as heck knew about the exagerations, and I knew that those who fought against it were either TOLD to do it or were sidelined or removed. Only one DE I knew of was successful in fighting the pressure- by working his tail off and producing real numbers and money. Within the office it was a common topic of conversation- on the hush obviously!

 

Of course, the ONLY reason I knew about it was because the position I had (a VERY low-level job), we needed membership roles and unit contact info. I saw units on it I knew from another part of my job to be extinct or never existed.

 

Sure, I knew about the 8 'ghost Scouts' in our unit as well- but the DE then (NOT the one who fought and won) just told me that it was a glitch that would clear up... and it only took 5 years to get rid of them (and then only after the new DE started). I had believed the old DE until I started the council job.

 

I do not know what the current status of that council is. I certainly hope they got their act together, but since the key info is kept pretty hush-hush, no one really seems to know anymore, and my last insider contact retired a year ago (when things were looking interesting there.)

 

 

 

Now- this is the BUSINESS side of Scouting, and is run by people to whom Scouting is both a youth program and a rather big business. I think this reflects more a simple and common desire to look good and ensure the status quo than an attempt to defraud America. I doubt it will tear Scouting down, nor would I ever agitate for that.

 

We just need to get the 'A Scout is Trustworthy' message back on track in the business offices.

[SeattlePioneer]

Mmmmm. Rainbow-Push. Does ANOTHER one of Jessie Jackson's relatives need payoffs in order to make their protests go away again?

 

In my district, a real effort has been made to attract hispanic youths and parents with the Soccer and Scouting Cub Scout Program. This has produced a lot of real bodies I have seen with my own eyes.

 

But high rates of immigrant families seems to produce very poor numbers for traditional Scouting around here. Since my grandparents were Polish, I've toyed with the idea of visiting the Polish cultural/fraternal organization they helped establish almost 100 years ago and see if there is an interest in establishing a Scout program through that group. Giving the organization and parents control over a program directed at their children just might produce interest.

 

A Scout Leader in a traditional Scouting unit was bitterly complaining to me that he needed immigrant parents and boys in his program to make it work. I suggested to him that the Soccer and Scouting hispanics were probably equally disappointed to be unable to attract whites to their program ----perhaps he should be a "crossover" and join their program.

 

 

Lot's of good questions, but no compelling answers.

 

 

 

Seattle Pioneer

 

 

 

 

[packsaddle]

TRUSTWORTHY

A Scout tells the truth. He keeps his promises. Honesty is part of his code of conduct. People can depend on him.

 

These people have crossed the line and they must be KICKED OUT! And let the legal system do whatever is appropriate. Like Ross Perot said, we need to shovel out the barn. And I think that doing it very publicly would send a positive message to other people who are like those of us who really care about the boys.

 

Edited part: The more I consider the social justice aspects of this the angrier I get. Are most of these scandals at the expense of underprivileged boys? If so, it's disgusting, really disgusting.

I doubt that if there actually were any real enemies of scouting, they could do more damage than the collapse of this house of cards.

 

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive"(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[jkhny]

Did you even check out the site or the recent coverage of Atlanta? From 15,000 (spun by BSA to only 10,000 claimed) to 5300 (with only 3400 "active") and would ANY company on earth tolerate that kind of creative accounting???? Even the repeated and regular 30% differences would be cause for dismissal in any other organization.

 

Black Scoutmasters are saying they are fed up with being used in photo-ops to show how Scuting is serving the inner city - even as BSA lies like hell about it. A whole troop took off their uniform shirts in protest. Troop leaders - REAL leaders of REAL Troops are saying they don't think there's 500 kids in this program - when BSA was claiming 15,000.

 

Again, this is a regular and far too common problem. Are all those that say "ain't happening here" SURE about that? We had a guy starting up a Venturing crew calling up other units to find out how they were doing and such. Most of the the supposed units were dead - some for years. We have a Pack -the darlings of our District for "growth" claiming 50 members. Eight showed in the Memorial Day parade. We had 26 out of 37 real members. C'mon. Something stinks somewhere. We won't play games, but others are far more willing to bend rules - or just plain old lie. And in most cases the DE is doing it for units whose leaders don't even know what's happening......all those "errors" - boys not seen in years that you just can't get taken off rosters. I'm hard pressed to find a Unit Leader that hasn't had to cope with this.

 

Few Unit Leaders - and few District people ever get to see what official claims are being made by Council. It's EASIER for large COuncils to lie like hell. If there are supposed to be 65,000 in your COuncil, odds are you aren't going to know much beyond your owwn District. Here - with supposedly 10,000 - people have a good idea what's real and what isn't.

 

Google Boy Scouts enrollment Atlanta and read the stories. Then say this is a "shakedown" - this is people rightfully fed up with being used by an organization that has done little to help them. Read what SCoutmasters are saying.

[madkins007]

Hey, guys- take a deep breath. A Scout is trustworthy, and he is also loyal and helpful.

 

The people doing this are taking money wrongfully and it needs to be fixed on a national level- as publically as possible- but they are not defrauding widows or destroying pension plans or pumping toxic waste into aquifers or molesting children or doing any of what other companies/organizations are doing around us every day and getting away with.

 

For that matter, the United Way is probably the biggest party directly hurt in this, and they really probably should be asking for some better verification from their charities. I'd bet a pretty penny that the BSA is absolutely no worse than some other groups are about inflating claims and needs.

 

I think we need to be carful to not brand the BSA business branch as either a devil OR a saint- either extreme seems unhelpful.

[Bob White]

Atlanta can't get 500 boys in the program? Doesn't that say more about their volunteer leadership problem then a council professional problem?

 

An entire troop in Atlanta took their uniform shirts off in protest? How many people could that have been?

 

Each council is a separate community based corporation. I am sorry that Atlanta has not maintained a program that serves the interest and adventure of their local youth as well as others have done. For the youths' sake, I wish that the local adults had put on a better propgram. But that is Atlanta's problem, isn't it? The only solution will be for Atlanta to learn to do it better.

 

 

[evmori]

The sad part of the whole thing is this could affect councils that are on the up & up. A black eye for one council effects the entire country.

 

Ed Mori

Troop 1

1 Peter 4:10

[Hunt]

"Atlanta can't get 500 boys in the program? Doesn't that say more about their volunteer leadership problem then a council professional problem?"

 

Are you suggesting that the actions of the professionals was a justifiable response to poor program performance by volunteer leaders? I believe in loyalty to the organization, but that takes it a bit far for my taste.

 

[packsaddle]

The '500 boy' figure comes from a statement by Kevin Tullis, a former DE for the Atlanta Area Council. He made this speculation after leaving BSA and pursuing a career in another business. The paragraph that contains the figure states:

 

"United Way President Mark O'Connell said his group was told by the Scouts that nearly half of the 46,000 youths served in its 13-county region are black. But Tullis said he'd be surprised if minority numbers topped 500 in Atlanta."

 

The '500' figure also occurred in a statement by cubmaster Cedric Samuels, "City of Atlanta registration figures show 8400 boys in three overwhelming minority districts when there are apparently less than 500 active."

 

As far as I know, there still is no reliable determination of the actual number of minority or disadvantaged boys in scouting for that council. Unless one still believes the figure that is an order of magnitude or two larger.

 

I do not understand the need to try to lay the blame on Mr. Samuels or other leaders of Atlanta packs and troops. The volunteers serving the few boys that actually ARE in scouting are doing their job. The volunteers are not the liars and cheats responsible for 'cooking the books'.

Alternatively, it is irrational to indict volunteers who don't even exist for failing to bring in more boys. Though, I suppose as long as those failed volunteers are imaginary, they'll do just as well as scapegoats as they did for the imaginary numbers. After all, until recently, the council people were satisfied to report imaginary boys and imaginary leaders in return for real monetary gain.

 

[NJCubScouter]

In Bob-world, it is always the volunteer leaders who are at fault.

[packsaddle]

Perhaps, but it also might merely be imaginary blame for the nonexistent volunteers.

We could just as well be discussing the days of Jim Bakker and PTL club (that's 'Pass The Loot' for those who don't remember) minus the gratuitous sex (I hope...gulp). Come to think of it, he's had a new show for about a couple of years now. Really turned things around. Think he could do a little consulting on business ethics for a large youth club?

[Bob White]

jkhny writes "Troop leaders - REAL leaders of REAL Troops are saying they don't think there's 500 kids in this program - when BSA was claiming 15,000.

 

packsaddle writes "United Way President Mark O'Connell said his group was told by the Scouts that nearly half of the 46,000 youths served in its 13-county region are black. But Tullis said he'd be surprised if minority numbers topped 500 in Atlanta."

 

and

 

"in a statement by cubmaster Cedric Samuels, "City of Atlanta registration figures show 8400 boys in three overwhelming minority districts when there are apparently less than 500 active."

 

 

and finally he writes

 

"As far as I know, there still is no reliable determination of the actual number of minority or disadvantaged boys in scouting for that council."

 

 

And that is probably the only accurate evaluation we have. There are no reliable numbers at this point.

 

In some scouters' world it is easier to blame everyone except those responsible for actually delivering the program each week. Why is it so hard to accept that if Johnny's troop meetings are bad its because of Johnny's leaders not because an SE a thousand miles away did something wrong?