CubsRgr8 Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 From a notoriously conservative website, check this out! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/interviews/giedd.html To summarize, Dr. Jay Giedd is a neuroscientist at the National Institute of Mental Health. Recently, he spearheaded research showing for the first time that there is a wave of growth and change in the adolescent brain. His recent research shows that the adolescent brain continues to develop throughout adolescence. The frontal lobe of the brain, the "part of the brain that allows us to conduct philosophy and to think about thinking and to think about our place in the universe," is not fully developed until around age 20. As it physically matures, it is discarding unused connections and codifying others. Does this research have anything important to say to us about how an adolescent develops his life decisions about the concept of morality? The concept of what is acceptable behaviour in the arena of human sexuality? The concept of God? Absolutely! In light of this research, is a 14 year old brain is physically developed enough to decide on the existence of God or the nature of what is acceptable sexual behavior? Dr. Giedd's research indicates to me that it clearly is not. Which is why it is so important for parents to constantly reinforce their values in their children during their teenage years. What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 I have only skimmed the article so far, but here are a few observations: 1. I don't think our brains are ever ready to "decide on the existence of God" whether at age 14 or 40 or 80. It is not something we decide. And, although I know a lot of people disagree with this, it is not something we can really know. It is just something we believe. 2. If a 14 year old's brain is not ready to form an opinion on the existence of God, how can we penalize him for forming the "wrong" opinion? In particular, if a boy's parents are atheists, and instilled this belief in their son, then it really seems unfair to penalize him for being an atheist, since according to you he himself had nothing whatsoever to do with the decision. 3. At the same time, why do we "reward" youths who merely repeat the teachings of their parents when it comes to religion? (Which is what you appear to be suggesting parents should strive for.) By reward, I simply mean we praise their reverence and their devotion to their duty to God. But is it really theirs, or is it their parents'? 4. What I say in #2 and #3 do not necessarily reflect my opinions on BSA policy. What they really reflect is my belief that CubsRGr8 is drawing conclusions from the article that the reasearch in question doesn't necessarily support and that the scientist quoted in the article might disagree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Scouter Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 Well, the research is pretty clear, if it's to be believed, that a person of Scout age is not "brain-mature" enough to be able to make sound decisions on the existence of God, proper sexual behavior, etc. At that point, I think I'll have to differ with CubsRgr8. Rather than re-inforcing my own belief system on my children, what I strive to do is mentor them on "how to think", that is, the process of making their own judgements, and then help them to make their own decisions as they mature. As they become old enough for these kinds of discussions, I always make a point of telling them that "this is what I think, but you'll have to make your own decisions on this as you get older". What a parent thinks about God or sexuality, etc, isn't really the point; they could, holy smokes, be "wrong". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASM59 Posted June 13, 2005 Share Posted June 13, 2005 The conclusion that I draw from the article is that some of the most critical brain development happens during the time that we have an influence on the boys in Boy Scouts. We get them at age 10-11 and the article points out that it is around the time of puberty that "brain sculpting" begins to take place. The article also points out that the way youth (preadolescent and into their teen years) spend their time seems to be crucial. Activities they are involved in help to guide the development and connections in their still developing brains. Those connections that are used and enhanced, will survive into adulthood and those that are not used will "wither and die". So youth should be involved in activities that will benefit them and will lead to a more productive adult life. I have always believed that Scouting provides an avenue to reinforce beneficial behavior that can shape young boys to become a more productive adult. This article just summarizes this and discusses the physiology of it all. As a side note regarding the discussions about the existence of God: I have a friend with a doctorate in adolescent development. His doctoral thesis was on the topic of mentoring youth (he is a youth pastor). Without going into the physiology of it all he has come up with much the same conclusions as are outlined in this article. Rational thinking begins at about the onset of puberty. It is at this time that concepts regarding things like the existence of God or even our own purpose can begin to be grasped. And yes, much of this falls to the teachings that that child has grown up under. ASM59 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubsRgr8 Posted June 13, 2005 Author Share Posted June 13, 2005 NJ- 1) I agree that one accepts the existence of God by belief, or faith, not by proof. Perhaps I should have reworded the statement slightly. 2) I posit that your hypothetical scout is incapable of making this decision, due to his physically immature brain. For him to insist that there is no God is merely a reflection of his parents' position. 3) Scouting rewards scouts to reinforce behaviors that their parents want reinforced - heroism, duty towards God & country, honesty, etc. Yes, the beliefs and behaviors were taught to them by their parents, what's wrong with that? Where/When/Who taught you the beliefs/behaviors you held when you were 14? 4) I'm no scientist, just a parent and scouter who wants BSA to retain its requirement for a belief in God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubsRgr8 Posted June 13, 2005 Author Share Posted June 13, 2005 Prairie Scouter- Perhaps I'm just an old-fashioned curmudgeon, but I believe it is the parents' right and responsibility to explain to their children WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it, in the very certain hope of influencing their character. You seem to be saying something else. Are you saying that you don't care what conclusions your children reach about God or sexual behavior? or politics? or environmental stewardship? or the war in Iraq? or honesty? To quote John Stossel "gimme a break!" Of course you care! The point I'm making by starting this post is that current scientific research is saying the adolescent brain is being shaped and formed by its environment until it hits 20+ years old. It is physically unable to have matured by age 12 or 14 or 16 to the point that it "knows" where it stands on most personal life issues, especially profound issues such as God and sexual behavior. The adolescent brain is constantly being influenced most profoundly by the people around it, but also (and Dr. Giedd agrees) by the culture around it. That, therefore, becomes the justification for Scouting's discriminating values when it comes to certain beliefs and behaviors. They are old-fashioned, traditional, and certainly not politically correct. But they are timeless values which tens of millions of parents (including myself) want instilled into their children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frankj Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 I would be happy to see research on the subject of what part of the brain controls the ability to "plan ahead" and further, if diet can influence this ability in teenagers. I can attest that if indeed, diet may be a factor, Doritos, Cheetos, Lays Salt and Vinegar Chips either have no influence, or may even suppress the ability. My luck is that research will show that cooked, green vegetables contribute to the development of this ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packsaddle Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 The work on which the interview is based was published as far back as 1999, the research well before that. I'm not sure why the sudden attention? If you follow the links to other interviews and discussions you will understand that scientists involved with this research are very concerned about the leaps being made here in this thread. They are extremely cautious about extensions of their research into policy or practice. Our beliefs are not 'hard-wired' by neurochemistry. Truth is not something that is a result of brain chemistry. Rather, our innate ability to reason, our personality traits, our talents, things deep within us may change or develop as our brains develop. And the primary value of this research is that normal development does not end at some arbitrary teen age but in fact continues into the 20s. Environmental influences can affect that development. Did we really need this research to 'know' this intuitively? Duh! Facts and faiths can be learned or rejected as a matter of choice at any time, whether 14 or 40, as NJ writes. I know septagenarians who are learning to play new musical instruments for the first time, or foreign languages. I hope that many of us (and I have my doubts about some) can examine our own lives and realize that we have acquired many new traits and abilities well after our 20s. It is life-long growth and if we do not experience this, it often is by choice. Don't get me wrong. This research is very exciting. It may open doors to understanding how we think, or mental illness and its mechanisms. But it won't bring us any closer to deciding whether God is really 'negentropy' or whether an epiphany is an endorphin effect. But I guess it's fun to discuss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie_Scouter Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Cubs, Nope, not saying I don't care what my kids think. On the other hand, I don't believe I should be telling them WHAT to think, at least not in all matters. I can explain to them what I believe, why I believe that, and hope that they will agree with me. Some things, such as legal behavior, of course, are not open to discussion, but I'm referring to things where there is a wide diversity of opinion and option. So, I'll explain to my kids why I believe there's nothing inherently wrong with gays, but also what, for example, the BSA stance is on gay participation. Now, while no one with a point of view can be completely objective, I'll still try to explain both sides of these kinds of issues to my kids and encourage them to learn more and form their own opinions. Will I try to steer them towards my point of view? Sure I will. But I do feel an obligation as a parent to let them know that there are other perspectives as well. My point was really that during their formative years, it's more important to "wire" them with the processes needed to be well-thinking adults than it is to push them in any particular direction, although I'll be doing that as well just as any parent will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Oops, my brain is not working (duplicate post).(This message has been edited by acco40) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Teens have brains? As the parent of two, soon to be three, my research has shown that they do not. A man has been having terrible headaches. He and his wife visit the doctor. After much analysis the doctor proclaims - I have good news and bad news. "Tell us the bad news first", says the wife. "Well sir, you have inoperable brain cancer is the bad news; the good news is that science has progressed far enough that we can perform brain transplants now," the doctor proclaims. "How much would that cost?", the couple asks. "Well, a male brain is $500,000 and a female brain would cost $10,000", the doctor states. The husband, smiling smugly at his wife asks, "Why the big price difference? Is the male brain that much better?" The doctor then states, "Oh, no. The male brain is so much more expensive because it has never been used before." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NJCubScouter Posted June 14, 2005 Share Posted June 14, 2005 Cubs says (to me): 2) I posit that your hypothetical scout is incapable of making this decision, due to his physically immature brain. For him to insist that there is no God is merely a reflection of his parents' position. So then I assume in the situation of the atheist parents and the atheist Scout, you disagree with the BSA policy of removing the Scout. How could it be fair to do so when his opinion is "merely a reflection of his parents' position" and he had no role whatsoever in forming that opinion. (Just so it's clear, I believe this hypothetical Scout did have a role in forming his opinion, and in the past I have said I do not oppose the BSA policy on atheists, though I am become less and less convinced as time goes on that the best interests of the organization are well-served by removing them or denying them advancement.) 3) Scouting rewards scouts to reinforce behaviors that their parents want reinforced - heroism, duty towards God & country, honesty, etc. Yes, the beliefs and behaviors were taught to them by their parents, what's wrong with that? Nothing's necessarily wrong with it... unless one draws the conclusions from that article that you seem to draw, which is that the young person who is "caught" early enough by their parents has no role in what they themselves believe. I think what we are honoring and rewarding in children who behave "correctly" is that they have learned how to make decisions and have made the correct decisions -- not that they are functioning well as mindless robots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acco40 Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 If age has a big factor on brain development, has any research been done on those who have been "born again?" Sorry, I may have to "moderate" myself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndaigler Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 LOL!! FOTFLOL!!! It's going . . . going . . . gone!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevorum Posted June 15, 2005 Share Posted June 15, 2005 And what about past lives? Maybe Shirley MacLaine is smarter than we think ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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