Eventual Co-Ed Scouting

[hacimsaalk12]

im totally against it. it just adds a lot more room for someone to accuse another perosn of things. if it went that way, instead of two deep, you have to go 3 or 4 deep. you also have many problems like sleeping aragements, and changing areas. at a scouts age, do you really think they need the temptation of a girl around, or knowing that "just beyond that door is a room of naked girls." you would also have to have a supervisor for everything. you can't exactly let boys who have raging hormones, go play games with girls down in the woods. it opens too many opportunites for sexual opportunites of all sorts. i know personally as a scout i would have trould concentrating on eagle or anyhting else for that matter. i would concentrate more on the girls. young and old scouts alike, dont need that at all.

[hacimsaalk12]

"I thought it was just good judgment. In my experience, trusting that the adult supervision will absoultely protect kids from hanky-panky is hopeful, but not realistic. Kids outwit adults all the time (I did). Further, I don't think we can rely on "good" kids to not engage in hanky-panky. If we make something available to get into trouble with, even good kids make mistakes. "

 

i agree. being a scout, and knowing many "good" kids, i can speak from experience. many of my friends at school are "good" kids. parents are supervising them all the time. they outwitted the adults and did the hanky-panky. its not that hard to do. be realistic. if a boy and a girl wanted to engage in hanky-panky, all they have to do is wait until the SM is asleep. after that time pretty much all the scouts and girls would be free to engage as they wanted.

 

 

 

[OldGreyEagle]

So bascially Venturing is just a program for guys and gals to hook up and there is no hope that any morals will be shown? That there cant possibly be a situation where males and females can see that they dont have to treat each other as chattel and both can think and express themselves in a non sexual manner?

 

So, will there be a revolt against Venturing since its only result can possibly be an increased pregnancy rate?

[ScoutNut]

A few thoughts:

 

First, I don't know ANY females, young or old, who camp naked. Maybe in other areas of the country, but I highly doubt it.

 

Second, Most youth that I know, hormones or not, aren't stupid. If all they want is sex they can find/do that anywhere. They know that there is a time & place for everything & it isn't Scouts.

 

Third, hacimsaalk12, I sure hope your parents read this forum & realize they might have a problem on their hands. I hope you at least practice safe "hanky-panky". Whatever do you plan to do when you go away to college? There will be "naked girls" next door, or at the very least down the hall. I am sorry, but you do not sound like you have very much respect for either young women or yourself.

 

[hacimsaalk12]

to clear up a few things: i wasn't reffering to me in my last post. i was saying that i know kids who appear to be good, but they do hanky-panky. i personally do not engage in such things. i believe it is better to wait. i try to treat every young girl/ woman with the most respect i can. i think it is both disrespectful to both yourself and the girl if you engage in activity that you shouldn't. it shows that you have no repect for yourself.

 

as far as venturing is concerned: MOST* involved are older, and have more control. (*notice i stressed most) if you could get into a 13 or 14yr olds mind, you would be amazed at what they think about. i dont know if it is just around here, but most kids that age seem to want to talk about hanky-panky all the time. they have not developed much control yet. in my post i was not saying that all guys want to do hanky-panky. most im sure are good people to be around. you do get a few corrupt ones though, and they are the problems.

 

sorry i wasnt more clear in my last post

 

[ScoutMomAng]

Ummmm....NO! I have a daughter and two sons, I don't think 6-10 grade girls need to be participating in BOY scouts. I like the idea of venturing but let me tell you as the mother of a daughter, I will be VERY VERY nervous if she joins and goes on a campout with them!

 

What I think...is that GIRL scouts needs to get back to the basics of what Girl Scouting was meant to be. Quit changing the rules CONSTANTLY and the uniforms! JMHO---

 

Ang

[TheScout]

Boy Scouts for boys. Girl Scouts for girls. Who would have thought of that!

[madkins007]

re: concerns about co-ed camping. In my experience, simply requiring that the girls sleep a bit apart from the boys and are chaperoned by adequate numbers of female leaders/adults provides one big layer of protection. A strong activity program provides another.

 

re: Girl Scouts. If they are offering a strong equivilant program, then girls would not want to join the BSA in the first place and we would not be having this discussion. Not dissing the GSUSA, just pointing out that they are not meeting the same needs that the BSA would be able to.

 

The BSA's Vision Statement is (cut and pasted from the national website):

The Boy Scouts of America is the nation's foremost youth program of character development and values-based leadership training.

In the future Scouting will continue to

* Offer young people responsible fun and adventure;

* Instill in young people lifetime values and develop in them ethical character as expressed in the Scout Oath and Law;

* Train young people in citizenship, service, and leadership;

* Serve America's communities and families with its quality, values-based program.

 

Our current co-ed program serves 288,395 youth in the US- less than 1/10th of the 3,200,218 youth enrolled. Are we coming close to fulfilling our vision by only having Venture co-ed?

[ozemu]

We have had girls in Scouts Australia for 10-15 years or so. Longer in ages 15 and up.

 

Apart from having a woman as part of two deep rules and a separate tent for girls to sleep in there are no problems. No extra toilets or anything.

 

Sex!! When young people look at their hearts desire for 24/7 and see them first thing in the morning with no full blown bathroom and sweating from lugging a backpack around they at least have a realistic understanding of thier strengths and weaknesses.

 

No problems amongst ages 6-15. In Venturers (you have those I hear) there are sometimes sex issues. Not often though and some on this forum have BSA experience to refer to.

 

My daughter has been in Scouts for 7 years (Joeys, Cubs, Scouts) and is now a PL in the Troop. She is 13 and has a few words on the issue:

 

"Why don't they (BSA) just ban boys". Thanks Ash - not.

 

At least she doesn't see the issue as being very serious.

 

Scouts have respect for each other. Peeking into girls tents would attract immediate disciplinary action from ... the PL's. A scout is clean apparently and that sort of behaviour is not tolerated by anyone involved. Every now and then I have had to pull up some girls who dribble on about who should be matched with who but the Troop is four and half years old and the talk has not been needed for two years. All change takes some geting used to but the step is not that big really.

 

Now I cannot respond to any questions because I go to work in the morning. I am an outdoor education instructor. We have a coed school group of 10-12 year olds for three days. Teachers get fairly testy about separating the students at night. I have never known Scouts to be involved (either girls or boys). I suspect we teach them life skills and values that trickle on to other aspects of their life.

 

Oh - one proviso. We congregate our girls into coed patrols and leave some of the Patrols boy only. Only because we don't have 50% splits and we have found that girls want at least another one or two girls around in their patrol.

[ScoutNut]

My son's (16yo) take on the subject, after a few moments of thought, was that the 2 organizations (BSA & GSUSA) work fine the way they are. They act like sifters or sorters. They start out with lots & lots of Daisies & Tigers. Then by the time they are Juniors & Webelos they have lost quite a few who really weren't interested. Once you get to Cadettes & Boy Scouts you loose more to school & sports. Finally, by the middle or end of HS, you are left with those boys & girls who REALLY like, and want to be in, Scouts. These will come together & join a Venturing Crew.

 

Sometimes I have trouble deciding if he is serious or not!

 

On the subject of "hanky panky" he said the only guys who have that on the brain 24/7 are those who listen to to much of that "crappy rap where the only lyrics are those about how badly women should be treated."

 

Maybe he's NOT a pod person from the planet Crazy Teen after all!!

 

[Torveaux]

I'm with torribug on this one. While there is a GSUSA, it is far inferior IMHO to the BSA program in many ways. I like the Try-It badges for the young ones as it gets the instant gratification factor that is missing in Cubs, the rest is rather poor. I have 2 girls and 2 boys, so this subject is near and dear to my heart.

 

I have no interest in co-ed Scouts, while most scouts may be able to control themselves, it only takes a couple to ruin it for the rest. Besides, I think for most the bigger issue is removing a 'safe-haven' organisation where the boys can be boys and the girls can be girls without the added pressure of inter-gender relationships (I don't mean dating, I mean the way kids act around their friends of the same gender is much different than when you add both). As an educator, I have investigated this subject from an academic standpoint and the data that is available suggests that single gender schools are better for both boys and girls. Not because of sex, per se, but because of the removal of that element of life distracting them from the purpose at hand.

 

To whom it may concern: when dealing with a hypothetical about something, it is generally bad form to repeatedly comment things along the lines of 'we already thought of that and it will never happen'. If you don't have some creative opinions on the subject, it may be better if you sit this one out.

 

Just because the BSA is too chivalrous as an organization to recruit girls into the Girl Cubs does not mean that a discussion about the merits of the idea is worthless. Things change. Maybe if BSA leadership changes over time, enough people who are fed up with GSUSA's pathetic program will end the current attitude of detente. The Seeker program (for Kindergarten) is co-ed, so maybe there is a change brewing...

 

As for the uniforming issue in the GSUSA, the younger girls tend to like the dress-up factor and despite the 'requirement' of only the vest or sash, my daughter and her peers are more in uniform than the Cubs of their own age. Clearly as they get older it is not cool, and the uniform is worn as little as possible.

 

The way I see it 90+% of the Cub/Boy Scout program would be beneficial as is for girls. There may be some additional things that may be of more interest to girls than boys that could be added, but generally the program is rather gender-neutral.

[juris]

Why, what's wrong with that ? You see we are braught up with our "quaker" mentality, to keep sexes apart when they are tenagers. ?That's because our sociaty corrupted it self, by permiting sexual implied comercials, songs and pornographical literature for every one to purchase and see.

This idea of co-ed Scouting fears all got changed, when I went to Sweden.

Their Scouting is a joint venture with boys and girls. Their councils run jointly not seperaterd as ours. Their camps are organized together. They camp as a unit, with girls in one tent, and boys in an other. I also noticed that some times girls encampedment was over a stream. The women leaders would look after the girls, and the men after the boys.The adult female and male leaders stayed in one six person army tent. where I atayed. ( guess, what ? I did not get married, ha,ha,) I noticed that some senior girls were patrol leaders of a boy patrol, and a senior boy in charge of girl patrol, or vica versa. The co-ed Scout unit conducted all normal activities, day and evening without any problems, that I have observed. The adult leaders invited me to local restaurant for a beer. I asked that same questions that worries all of our skeptical American leaders, "Is their any hanky panky going on at camp ? " Never!!!!....maybe when they get home, but that is not our responsibility". One male adult leader said that., you in the States are over sexed, and our scouts are taught to respect sex. Will we have ,co-ed Scouting ?, it will only happen when Girls Scout of America get integrated together with Boy Scouts of America. My conlusion " the train will never meet " Juris.

P.S. Go to Sweden and observe for your self.

[NJCubScouter]

Torveaux says:

 

The Seeker program (for Kindergarten) is co-ed, so maybe there is a change brewing...

 

I have never heard of the Seeker program, which organization is that a part of? Please don't tell me the BSA is starting a kindergarten program. Well, if it's true, tell me, but I won't like it. (Though it wouldn't be my problem anymore, these days I only have to help deal with 11-year-olds who sometimes act like 5-year-olds... not to mention 16-year-olds who sometimes act like 5-year-olds... but at least not actual 5-year-olds.)

[SemperParatus]

I'm feelin' it...

 

You are the Dancing Queen, young and sweet, only seventeen

Dancing Queen, feel the beat from the tambourine

You can dance, you can jive, having the time of your life

See that girl, watch that scene, dig in the Dancing Queen

 

[ozemu]

Torveaux,

 

I agree that boys and girls will probably study better when separated. Besides you can work on learning, themes and understandings that are gender oriented.

 

My thinking though is that the purpose at hand involves the community building that very much involves both genders. Unless we are training our boys for service in single gender institutions like the military. And even there, depending on your job, women will be your boss, peers or subordinate. As they (girls) are different it is my view that we should get to know them under stressful situations early in life so that they are not so strange when we shoulder an adult load.

 

For the most part I agree about academics but as a teacher I do not see school as being even remotely like adult life outside institutions. I am referring to mass education as I have no experience with very small non-govt/church schools.

 

As I have seen it Scouting provides structure without walls, self discipline over overt discipline, boy led etc and that prepares young people for when they must work and live with the other gender.