ACLU to BSA: Heads We Win - Tails You Lose

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

The Oregon court found the opposite, and the Michigan decision is being appealed. Plus, if the Michigan case holds, churches can demand (and will get) the same kind of access to students, because to allow the Boy Scouts but deny a church would be viewpoint discrimination.

[Prairie_Scouter]

Thanks, Tort, that case summary was interesting.

 

Merlyn,

Can you answer a question for me? I'm trying to understand this better, because I think I'm missing something. I've gone into schools as a Den Leader (now an SM) and met with the kids to tell them about Scouting. I bring in things we've built, like catapults and radios, etc, to show them the fun stuff we do. Now, if I'm understanding this right, you probably don't have a problem with that presentation, per se, but more with the bigger picture of advertising Scouting in a public school, because you would see it as a religious organization?

 

If minority groups, let's say an atheist group, are allowed to use a school facility as part of a school's "public access" outreach, is it ok, then, for Scouts to use that facility as well, after school hours?

 

If you've covered this before, I apologize for asking you to repeat it.

 

And, in answer to the poster who earlier asked why you would come here, knowing that very few, if any would agree with you, I'll throw back a response to that question I posted earlier, which is, this wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if the only people welcomed were people who all agreed on the same things. I am personally not so much "pro-Gay" or "pro-Atheist" as I am "pro-any good people who want to be involved in Scouting".

[Prairie_Scouter]

Thanks, Tort, that case summary was interesting.

 

Merlyn,

Can you answer a question for me? I'm trying to understand this better, because I think I'm missing something. I've gone into schools as a Den Leader (now an SM) and met with the kids to tell them about Scouting. I bring in things we've built, like catapults and radios, etc, to show them the fun stuff we do. Now, if I'm understanding this right, you probably don't have a problem with that presentation, per se, but more with the bigger picture of advertising Scouting in a public school, because you would see it as a religious organization?

 

If minority groups, let's say an atheist group, are allowed to use a school facility as part of a school's "public access" outreach, is it ok, then, for Scouts to use that facility as well, after school hours?

 

If you've covered this before, I apologize for asking you to repeat it.

 

And, in answer to the poster who earlier asked why you would come here, knowing that very few, if any would agree with you, I'll throw back a response to that question I posted earlier, which is, this wouldn't be much of a discussion forum if the only people welcomed were people who all agreed on the same things. I am personally not so much "pro-Gay" or "pro-Atheist" as I am "pro-any good people who want to be involved in Scouting".

[tortdog]

Actually, Merlyn, the plantiff's parent made your argument and the court disagreed. The court looked to churches and almost laughed out loud when the plaintiff's argued that the BSA was a church or a form of religion. (If the BSA WAS a religion, it's a pretty screwed up one since part of it thinks Saturday is sacred, the other part thinks that Sunday is sacred, part thinks cows are holy, part thinks we shouldn't eat pork...I mean...talk about MESSED UP!)

 

In seriousness, though, if the BSA literature included in it solicitations for the children to come to the BSA and pledge a duty to God, the court thought that might cross the line...but...not the way the literature is currently written.

 

>The Oregon court found the opposite

 

It's all wet. It will lose because Oregon (if appealed to the feds) goes to the 9th Circuit and the Supreme Court always overturns the 9th Circuit.

 

>and the Michigan decision is being appealed.

 

Yeah! Isn't that exciting? Hopefully we get this to the U.S. Supreme Court and we put the final nail in the coPlus, if the Michigan case holds, churches can demand (and will get) the same kind of access to students, because to allow the Boy Scouts but deny a church would be viewpoint discrimination.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

prairie scouter, your question seems to involve two different things:

 

First, using school facilities: schools can have their facilities open to outside groups, or only used for school-related activities. If they are open to outside groups, they can't discriminate against who can use their facilities, so Boy Scouts, churches, atheist groups, the KKK, etc all can use school facilities.

 

But your question starts with you "going into schools and telling kids about scouting", which is kind of vague. As above, anything open to the BSA has to be equally open to any other outside group, so if you're going into schools during school hours to recruit, churches, atheist groups, the KKK, etc ALL can demand (and get) the same access to students.

 

However, public schools can't allow outside groups to come in during school hours to recruit, especially religious organizations like the BSA, as students are a captive audience during school hours, and young children may not be able to tell the difference between a talk given by a teacher and one given by an outside, private, discriminatory religious organization.

 

That's the sort of recruiting that's being challenged in court.

[wyomingi]

Prairie,

 

The Federal Equal Access Act requires schools receiving federal aid and allowing any groups to use school facilities to allow all. This includes religious clubs, gay clubs, atheists clubs and the BSA. The only exception to this that I can see is if the safety of the students was jeopardized. Please note that this is about using the school's facilities, not being sponsored by a school. They are two different things. Some people here can't understand that concept.

 

This has been tested in the courts by the BSA From the BSA Legal web site:

 

The Broward County School Board excluded Boy Scouts from using school facilities after hours, as many community groups had for years. After Dale, the School Board sought to exclude Boy Scouts as violating a Board nondiscrimination policy applying to age, race, gender, religion, and sexual orientation. No other groupswhich included churches, a youth orchestra, a service agency for senior citizens, and an African-American sororitywere excluded. The District Court held that the School Board engaged in viewpoint discrimination against Boy Scouts views, and granted a preliminary injunction. The School Board ultimately agreed to a permanent injunction and agreed to pay Boy Scouts attorneys fees.

 

Note the last sentence. Heads BSA wins...

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Merlyn,

 

To clarify what I said...

 

Up until a couple of years ago (I've since move on to the Boy Scouts side of things), I used to stop by our local public elementary school, during lunch period, to spend 5 minutes of their play time to talk to the kids about our Pack (that's about as long as I could hold them inside ). I'd show them 2 or 3 projects we've done, and then give them a handout inviting them to our open house, where we could talk to them and their parents in more detail about Scouting. So, the talk was more like 5 minutes of "you can do neat projects like this, too!" rather than talking about the merits of the Scouting program. That was held for the evening open house.

 

Wyomingi,

Thanks for the info. And yep, I understand the difference between sponsoring and allowing to use facilities. Interesting court case you cited.

 

BTW, from your userid, are you from the great state of...? I've been out to the Jackson Hole /Grand Teton area something like 18 times since 1970. First as a climber, later as a vacationer. Gorgeous area, nice people. At one time, thought about living there (but the prices are unapproachable now), but the -40 winters.... Here in the northern Illinois, we manage to stay a bit warmer than that I knew a park ranger who lived in Wilson who used to tell me stories about skiing off the roof of his house....

 

Of course, people like Tort probably put on their jackets when it gets below 70 in Houston

[wyomingi]

Prairie_Scouter,

 

I didn't mean to include you in my comment, hope you werent offended.

 

Yes, I am in Wyoming but about 400 miles from Jackson. I read somewhere that Teton County has the highest per capita income in the country. So many billionaires have moved in that the millionaires can't afford to live there.

 

Do you give a patch for cold weather camping? Is it true that in Texas they give out one for camping when the temperature falls below 32 degrees?

 

[Prairie_Scouter]

Wyomingi,

 

No prob, no offense taken.

 

Ah, so you must be clear across the state from Teton County. You know, when I first starting going out there, the Jackson airport (only accessible by prop planes then), had no terminal and a wooden table where they'd toss the luggage. We'd hitchhike wherever we wanted to go. Now the airport is dominated by private jets. I picked up a real estate guide last time I was there (2003), and there weren't any houses that I'd be able to buy unless I made about 10x the money I make now. I read in the Jackson newspaper that most of the people working in Jackson can't afford to live there. Sounds like a lot of neighborhoods in Chicago

 

I'm thinking about bringing my Scout Troop out there for a high adventure trip in 2006. I suppose if I want to show them life in the Tetons we'll have to rent condos in the ski village

 

Actually, we do have something local here called the "frostfire award". In Texas, I think they'd give that out if it goes below 50 Tort??

[OneHour]

Wyomingi and Prarie ... we do have a little pride down here in Tx. In our Council (SHAC), our "winter camp patch" requirements are camping three (3) days and two (2) nights as a Scout unit with temperatures of 42.5 and less ... yep, the freezing temperature of 42.5! The kids went wild when it actually snowed down here (Houston) this past Xmas! Oh well, we get whatever we can!

[tortdog]

That was Gulf snow so it doesn't count.

 

I am seeking investment partners for the purpose of moving a mountain to within driving distance of Houston.

 

[soaking up 80 degree balmy weather off the Gulf coast]

[OneHour]

tort, neah ... it's better to tilt the Earth's axis about 5 northward and then move the mountain. Better yet, the mole hills in Austin would do just fine! I'm game. I have $1 ... when do we start?

[Prairie_Scouter]

Tort,

 

80 degrees? Our version of "balmy" in the Windy City today is 43, windy, and raining.

 

I think moving some hills down to Houston would be a great Eagle project, don't you?

 

I don't think the ACLU would have too much trouble with that.......

(he said in a faint attempt to give the illusion of being on topic)

[tortdog]

I LOVE Chicago. Great city (but can improve on the weather).

 

ACLU made almost $1 million off of the San Diego taxpayers because the city gave the BSA the same deal that it gave other nonprofits.

 

That's fair.

[Merlyn_LeRoy]

San Diego based its defense of the lease partly on the grounds that the BSA was not a religious organization; the BSA scuttled the city's own defense by their own admission that they WERE a religious organization.

 

The city decided to not defend the lease after being blindsided like that.