Pornography Okay with Scout Oath/Law?

[tortdog]

Corrected Tally:

 

A: 1

B: 0

C: 0

D: 3

 

Lots of talking about how it's hard to pick one. I'm wondering how all y'all do an SAT test...write in the margins?

 

>I for one consider this thread ridiculously absurd, for it serves no real purpose or leads to any meaningful discussion.

 

We'll disagree.

 

>Tortdog what the heck is your point?

 

I thought I made it clear. The purpose is to get an idea about how the self-proclaimed Scouters in this forum view pornography with the scouting. I am 100% sure that every youth and adult in our four units (cubs/troop/team/crew) would pick D. I'm learning that maybe this issue is not as clear cut among scouters as I had thought.(This message has been edited by tortdog)

[CA_Scouter]

>I for one consider this thread ridiculously absurd, for it serves no real purpose or leads to any meaningful discussion.

 

>We'll disagree.

 

Speak for yourself. Backpacker and I are in agreement. I'm sure there are more that are simply ignoring this subject and moving on to real scouting topics.

 

But OK, maybe I'm being too harsh. Let's try this one... If an alien spaceship landed in your front yard and Elvis knocked on your front door............

 

 

 

[NJCubScouter]

I thought it was strange that Ed would be voting for the alternative that was the least restrictive of other peoples' behavior. Thanks for clearing that up, Ed.

 

By the way, tortdog...

 

Well, before we get to that, tortdog, your account name compels me to ask... you wouldn't happen to be a lawyer, would you? If so, it's ok, you can admit it to me, I'm one too.

 

So as I was saying, tortdog, who are you counting as the "A" vote? Would that be me, because I mentioned "soft core" porn might not violate the Oath and Law, so you took that as a vote that "hard core" porn would? If so, please change my vote to "E": None of the above, or if you like, F: Against Tortdog's attempt to write new rules for the BSA.

[Backpacker]

Well I guess you would have to add, National Geographic, Time, Newsweek, Sports Illustrated, etc., because they all have published pictures of naked or scantily clad women as well. You see what I mean tortdog your whole premise is without foundation, and your whole approach is simplistic and childish nonsense. This is not an either or, or a black and white issue, where do you draw the line?

[Sturgen]

Don't forget to add the Bible, the Louve, Vatican City, nearly all plays, books, painting from the romantica era.....

I'll stop now, I think my point is clear enough.

 

[DugNevius]

...the beach, Lands End and Macy's cataloges, Marvel Comic books, NY Fashion week, reality television, Olympic Beach volleyball...

[Kahuna]

I would have to come down as a C, with a proviso. I do not think viewing pornography is anymore violative of the Scout Oath and Law than is having fantasies along the same lines. I suspect most men, women and boys in scouting have had such fantasies. Eh?

 

My proviso is that for example drinking alcohol while not involved in scouting activities is not, per se, a violation of the Oath or Law. However, abuse of alcohol would probably constitute a violation of both. I would think of pornography the same way. Assuming you are an adult, viewing legal porn, you aren't violating your Oath or Law. If you become addicted to porn, it's a different story.

 

Another proviso would be that if viewing porn violates your religious convictions, then you would be violating the morality/religious portions of the Oath and the Law.

 

Is that convoluted enough for you? :-)

[tortdog]

Yeppers. I'm a lawyer (but not a tort attorney). That was the name of our small section torts group in school (a dog that commits torts).

 

I am astonished that so many find this question difficult. So far, every person I have talked to that I am familiar with has immediately, I mean IMMEDIATELY, responded that any form of pornography has no place in scouts. These same people either have/had children in scouts or are/were scouts and scout leaders. Most are in my church, but I have asked more than a few.

 

Interestingly, not one sat and debated to themselves whether or not something was pornographic. One, in jest, commented that of course you think of your local Boy Scout Camp Lodge when you think of where to find the best porn.

 

One last thing that came to mind. Last year as I did the week-long wood badge, I was struck by something as I left. We stopped at a convenience store to pick up soft drinks on our way back home. As we entered, I was struck by the "filth" of the store. Now, it was a fairly new Shell station, but there were seemed like I had come from a clean place (the scout camp) and landed in a porn factory. But it wasn't...it was just a convenience store with the "normal" advertising by beer companies and other advertisers of scantily clad women. My point is, after having been in the scouting environment for one week, the "regular" world was filthy compared to it.

 

That's a good thing, I think.

[DugNevius]

what is surprising? That, with a expanded subject group you got a variety of answers concerning morality that are not consistent with the answers you got from members of your own conservative church group? Thats like going to a republican Rally to poll public opinion about an upcomming election and being amazed that they are all against abortion and Afirmative Action.

 

 

As for porn IN scouts, thats a totally sperate issue. Im sure most all of us would agree that veiwing the Pamela Anderson/Tommy Lee video as a scout activity would be out of line...

[evmori]

The Bible? How does the Bible fit?

[Torveaux]

I guess this has devolved into two different questions.

 

1) What do you consider pornography?

 

and

 

2) Is viewing it a violation of the Scout Oath?

 

I shall answer thusly....

 

1) I think pornography is more akin to graphics or text intended to sexually arouse the viewer. All nudity is not pornography; pornography need not include images or nudity. Examples: I would consider a sexually graphic story to be pornographic (pornotextic?). I would not consider a nude classical Greek statue to be pornographic. Hence, I can clearly not choose the glass in front of you.

 

2) I think that if something violates your own moral code, it would be a violation of the morally straight concept. The trick comes in that what you may consider pornography may be viewed as art by others. Viewing by you would be a violation; viewing by the others would not. Let's take the example of the lingerie mailings. If you are viewing them so you can buy something nice for your wife, it would not be a violation. If you are viewing them in a lecherous manner, it is likely a violation. So, I clearly cannot choose the glass in front of me.

 

I guess I do not really acknowledge a difference between soft and hard porn. Images are either offensive, or they are not. There is no try, there is only do or do not.

 

Also, since I think sex and sexuality has little place in teaching boys to be good leaders, I think any use of materials that even stray into the grey area should be absent from Scouting functions. Inconceivable!

 

On a side note: alcohol has been proven to be healthful in small doses and harmful in large doses. Categorizing it as a biotoxin would also place water and salt in the same category as both can kill in large enough doses. If I was the king of Scouting, I would take the British approach. I think children need to understand the difference between behavior that is acceptable for adults and acceptable for children. They actually could benefit from seeing adults use alcohol in a responsible manner. When we treat a legal substance with such secrecy it only serves to pique the imagination of some boys. There is a big difference between modeling good social behavior and getting intoxicated in public. I see nothing fundamentally wrong with Scouters having a beer around the campfire or a glass of wine in the dining hall.

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

D.

 

Everyone knows that women are to be worshiped as delicate vessels.

 

Women should be allowed to enter into sports but be closely supervised and wear only appropriate clothing and never be televised or photographed. All events would be closed only to participants and men coaches would be banished.

 

The multimillion dollar cosmetics, lingerie, and fashion industries should be outlawed.

 

We should burn any book that that even verbally depicts women as anything other than being perfectly pure.

 

Women should only have one pair of shoes, high top sneakers.

 

Women should be covered from head to toe with black robes and not be allowed to be seen or heard from ever again.

 

Any magazine that depicts women doing anything other than cooking or cleaning is out also.

 

Fantasies are to be prevented by a special electric dog collar around the neck and etc. of all males.

 

By following these simple guidelines, debates about such things (*word would no longer be uttered) would be unnecessary.

 

There are men even in Montana.

 

I think that just about does it. Did I leave anything out?

 

FB

 

 

 

[Vicki]

FB, if by "Montana" you're referring to my post, maybe my point wasn't clear. I'm a big fan of men in all shapes, sizes and most frames of mind (OK, not hugely overweight and the ones who think women are second class citizens can take a hike). Growing boys into good men is why I'm involved in the BSA in the first place (getting into the heads of my own through knowing a wide spectrum of boys is an ulterior motive). What I'm not a big fan of is the indulgence of the prurient side of human nature that makes subject lines like the one for this topic OK. I'm with others here who think this is a totally ridiculous discussion.

 

Montana is a state of mind thing, as the FZ song indicates. It's where you can dig a hole and pull it in after you and not deal with stuff like this. And yes, I realize there's a certain irony in the fact that I'm even keeping up with this thread:

[hacimsaalk12]

i was just reading through, and i started thinking after i read a post that said if an adult looking at legal porn, it was alright. then, is it allright for a minor (scout)to view it? would that violate anything?

 

 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Vicki,

 

I understood your analogy about Montana and FZ. I have also read and remember some of your other posts.

 

This question could be dealt with quickly and effectively if we were actually sitting around a campfire. There are several limiting factors to the virtual setting.

 

Hacky Sack,

No and Yes.

 

FB